6
   

Can We Cut Biden An Effing Break?

 
 
Bogulum
 
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 12:59 pm
I swear I almost believe that regarding Joe Biden, democrats on this site and off suffer some kind of selective blindness or partial amnesia, or some kind of compartmental insanity, or SOMETHING. Because they just can't seem to see and assess the man just as he is, and judge what he's done on a standalone basis.
At every turn, they have underestimated him, sold him short, expected the worst. And at every turn, he has outperformed all expectations.

The hand wringing about all the bad things that "still just might" happen drive me to distraction. What if a third party challenge" What if he gaffes really badly? What if the economy tanks? What if he dies and we OH MY GOD have to deal with Kamala Harris?

I've got one for you. What if Joe Biden continues to make decisions that avert disasters and creates ways to solve actual problems for the country? What if the administration he has assembled continues to operate with efficiency and purpose? What if he remains an exceptionally healthy octogenarian for a 2nd term, who maybe stumbles on words and stairs, but gets major **** done? What if THAT?

I could do a standard list of accomplishments, but the honest truth is the list is longer than I want to type. But I'll mention a couple of things, just because the man deserves our respect.

Biden inherited some horrible situations, and he handled each one like a BOSS. Resurgent Covid strains in 2021, paralyzing ransomware attacks, supply chain backups and muck ups, having to fulfill Trump's promise to get us out of Afghanistan, rapidly supplying Ukraine with energy and food supplies after the Russian invasion, rushing federal aid for nationwide natural disaster hurricanes and wildfires, and more.

AFTER the $1.9 trillion in pandemic relief that he secured, Biden was responsible for signing the $1 trillion infrastructure bill into law. That included $250 Billion for computer chip production.

Biden's efforts (Bidenomics) were the direct cause for Morgan Stanley recently having to make a "sizeable upward revision" in its forecasts for our GDP. Biden's infrastructure efforts are the direct cause for a "boom in large-scale domestic business investment, led by manufacturing" (also according to Morgan Stanley).

Joe Biden has appointed more judges to the federal bench than any president since JFK. The majority of them have been women and persons of color. This will have far-reaching positive influence on how justice is adjudicated for a generation.

As I said, there is so much more, but you take my point. the man has done a good ******* job. It would make sense if we hoped for his continued success.

At every turn, has the media's attention been on the steady, effective (if understated) coordinated government ACTION that Joe Biden's administration has provided? No, of course not. the media microphones go from crisis to crisis with no pause. It's always "this could be trouble for Biden", or "how will Biden handle this difficult set of circumstances". Just this past Friday, I heard an anchor on MSNBC say "2024 could be a disaster for Biden if they don't polish up VP Harris' image."

Last thing I'll share is this: People seem to be unaware that there have been times that the experience and wisdom of octogenarians has been crucially important to the survival and rebuilding of nations. Ben Franklin was 82 when he led the national consensus at the Constitutional Convention.
https://oll.libertyfund.org/reading_room/2022-07-27-benjamin-franklin-at-the-constitutional-convention
Post-war Germany depended on 87 year old Konrad Adenauer to rebuild national spirit and global trust. https://european-union.europa.eu/system/files/2021-06/eu-pioneers-konrad-adenauer_en.pdf
De Gaulle helped unify France as he was reaching 80 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle
Averell Harriman was one of our most distinguished diplomats, advising presidents until he was 94.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Averell_Harriman
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Type: Discussion • Score: 6 • Views: 682 • Replies: 25

 
Mame
 
  3  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 01:35 pm
@Bogulum,
Bogulum wrote:

At every turn, they have underestimated him, sold him short, expected the worst. And at every turn, he has outperformed all expectations.

People seem to be unaware that there have been times that the experience and wisdom of octogenarians has been crucially important to the survival and rebuilding of nations, advising presidents until he was 94.


I agree with you. And I would add that he's added some much-needed class and level-headedness to the government.

He's not the only politician who has stumbled, misnamed someone, or tripped. And unlike his predecessor, he doesn't taunt, insult, and nickname other world leaders... he doesn't push to the front and centre of a collection of international politicians, he doesn't keep the Queen waiting and then walk in front of her. He has class.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 02:14 pm
@Bogulum,
I've been feeling the same thing. Where is the recession everyone predicted? Instead, inflation is coming down, jobs are up and people are stepping up into better jobs while complaining about how bad Biden is. Russia is increasingly isolated, NATO is growing and Biden owns a lot of that. We have an infrastructure plan, chip manufacturing is returning to the US (my son just took a nice pay raise to go to a chip company that is expanding), we survived a deficit showdown, unions are making (slow) progress ... it goes on. Biden is surpassing not just my expectations, but my hopes. Is there more to do, sure. I'm I happy with his performance, absolutely.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 03:16 pm
@Bogulum,
I've posted pieces which extol Biden's accomplishments and I've posted pieces which draw attention to the rather odd disconnect between these accomplishments and his low approval rating. I've never posted an article which attacks him personally or discounts his achievements. I've defended him from attacks on this site which come from the left flank of the Democratic party and the know-it-alls on the twitterverse. I'll match my record of support with that of anyone else.

It's one thing to criticize the guy because he's old and dottering and uncharismatic. No Democrats on this site, as far as I know, have done that. No professed Democrats on this site have criticized his policies – even idealistic edgarblythe (no longer here) tended to criticize him for what he didn't do or hasn't done. Now, as the election nears, it's entirely appropriate to take some notice of the weakness of his candidacy with the public at large based on respected polls. If X-per cent of Democrats polled are lukewarm about him and say he's too old are we supposed to bury our heads in the sand?

Of course there have been effective politicians of advanced age. None of them dealt with the electorate we have, the crises we face, and instantaneous global electronic communication. Since Biden isn't personally popular his success in the next election will be solely based on his, and the country's, performance. So, right now he can rightly claim credit for the spending bills which have helped to ward off a recession. The Federal Reserve works directly to control inflation, but the administration has done what it can to bring prices down, firming up domestic manufacturing, getting supply chains moving, etc. If good economic news continues, it's possible that even the press will have to acknowledge it.

However, if there's a third party challenge, if there's a recession, if Ukraine suffers a devastating defeat – these sort of things aren't under Biden's control but he will be blamed for them. And in that case Biden's lack of star power may hurt him. I don't know if this will happen. I don't know if it won't happen. Running for reelection in a resilient country with a growing economy is a lot different than running when you're on the defensive and people are pointing the finger at you. And that's where people start looking for a more agile, energetic candidate with really good communication skills. George H.W. Bush is an example.

Yes, Biden's helped by the fact that there's no one else in the field. But I don't see that as a Biden positive – that's just luck.




hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 03:18 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
...people are stepping up into better jobs while complaining about how bad Biden is.

Exactly. So what does that tell you?
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 03:18 pm
@Bogulum,
I read some of DeSantis remarks about Kamala Harris, and it's the usual dismissive comments stupid people make about women who are political figures. It's all very offensive and it's the same crap I've heard all my life from people who have achieved nothing. I suspect it's just the narrow view of selfish people who hate everyone and everything. They see welfare as a free handoff to bums, prenatal care is a dodge by people who refuse to pay their bills, education is something that corrupts our children, books (oh my god) are a source of evil sin. Frankly, we have the lazy thinkers in charge. If they think of an insult gruesome enough to ruin another person, they use it because it makes them feel better about themselves.
0 Replies
 
Bogulum
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 03:40 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
I've posted pieces which extol Biden's accomplishments and I've posted pieces which draw attention to the rather odd disconnect between these accomplishments and his low approval rating.


It’s not an “odd disconnect”, it’s totally predictable. Because there are always a gaggle of people prognosticating a dozen scenarios of doom for Biden. The average person who doesn’t tune in and pay attention just hears “Uh oh, it may be trouble for Biden” Every. *******. Day.

Quote:
I've never posted an article which attacks him personally or discounts his achievements. I've defended him from attacks on this site which come from the left flank of the Democratic party and the know-it-alls on the twitterverse. I'll match my record of support with that of anyone else.


You feeling defensive? Sure sounds like you’re defending yourself. Someone accuse you of something?
Quote:
Now, as the election nears, it's entirely appropriate to take some notice of the weakness of his candidacy with the public at large based on respected polls. If X-per cent of Democrats polled are lukewarm about him and say he's too old are we supposed to bury our heads in the sand?


You say “it’s entirely appropriate” to take notice of and make comment about the weak polling. Appropriate for whom? If someone is hoping Biden succeeds, are they watching polls to see what “everyone” thinks, or are they looking at reports of what the man has actually done? You sound almost like you wanna be newscaster - talking about “what the polling indicates”. Why is watching opinion polls so goddam important to you? 24-hour cable news HAS to watch, and report on polls. It’s part of the ‘horserace’ mentality that they have decided is the only way they can report the news. But what’s your excuse?

Quote:
However, if there's a third party challenge, if there's a recession, if Ukraine suffers a devastating defeat – these sort of things aren't under Biden's control but he will be blamed for them. And in that case Biden's lack of star power may hurt him. I don't know if this will happen. I don't know if it won't happen.


Just curious – is there any sane, reasonable perspective to take on the upcoming 2024 election that lies between searching for, and pointing out every possible negative scenario, and “sticking my head in the sand”? Because it sounds like you think those are the two choices. Again, do you want Joe Biden to survive and succeed? Or do you see yourself as a disinterested observer?
Bogulum
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 03:42 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
...people are stepping up into better jobs while complaining about how bad Biden is.

Exactly. So what does that tell you?


It tells me the rank and file are stupid and easily led. What's it tell you?
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 03:53 pm
@Bogulum,
Quote:

It tells me the rank and file are stupid and easily led. What's it tell you?

It tells me the exact same thing.

So, what does that tell you?
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Jul, 2023 07:25 pm
@Bogulum,
I think one problem is how extremists on each side are. Right wing extremists are nuts, but they go after anyone they perceive as being on the left. Left wing extremists vent their fury on ... Democrats. No matter what Biden does, if he doesn't provide universal healthcare, forgive all student loans, cut carbon emissions to zero by banning all oil production and provide a $500 minimum hourly wage, he is a tool of corporate America and no better than Trump.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2023 03:13 am
@Bogulum,
Quote:
Because there are always a gaggle of people prognosticating a dozen scenarios of doom for Biden.

Yes, there is a lot of buzz in the media about Biden and his chances for reelection. There's not much you or I can do about that other than point it out.
Quote:
You feeling defensive?

No. I'm responding the first sentence of this thread:
Quote:
I swear I almost believe that regarding Joe Biden, democrats on this site and off suffer some kind of selective blindness or partial amnesia, or some kind of compartmental insanity, or SOMETHING.

Tell us who these "democrats on this site" are.
Quote:
Sure sounds like you’re defending yourself.

I can't answer for "democrats on this site" because you never identified who you're referring to. I can only answer for myself.
Quote:
You say “it’s entirely appropriate” to take notice of and make comment about the weak polling.

Yes, news about the candidates and criticism of the news about candidates are both commonly discussed topics during presidential campaign.
Quote:
Why is watching opinion polls so goddam important to you?

I don't watch opinion polls. I've quoted journalists who refer to opinion polls. It's useful to know what reporters and columnists are saying.
Quote:
But what’s your excuse?

I don't need an "excuse" to post a column or an article which happens to mention opinion polls.
Quote:
Again, do you want Joe Biden to survive and succeed?

Assuming he's the nominee, of course I want him to succeed. While Obama may be my favorite president, Lyndon Johnson was the best president in my lifetime, even if he did send me to Vietnam. And Biden is the best president since LBJ. The fact that he isn't a shoe in and we have to depend on "rank and file voters who are stupid and easily led" makes me uneasy.
Bogulum
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2023 04:33 am
@hightor,
I guess part of my problem is I’m just plain confused.

So, we agree that the electorate at large is sort of dumb and gullible.

And, we agree that in presidential election seasons, pundits and reporters will recite poll results until they turn dark turquoise.

Somewhere after that is where I start having trouble following your thinking.

I say that the MSM cites the mostly meaningless polls because it’s the directive of program directors and corporate bosses who believe that making constant references to “the horse race” is the way to maximize the viewership of the dumb and gullible, and therefore maximize the company bottom line.

But when I ask why you pay so much attention to that mindless “this is what the dumb and gullible people think” narrative, you say… what?
1) That you’re not pointing out the polls themselves, you’re pointing out that reporters are pointing out the polls? And,
2) You do this because this is simply what’s done during presidential election cycles?

I see the constant babbling about “the popularity of x person or x policy has risen or fallen x numbers since last month” as a pointless exercise with zero value added to the political process.

Even if you’re just babbling about the professional babblers.

You see it as… what, again?




hightor
 
  3  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2023 05:56 am
@Bogulum,
Quote:
But when I ask why you pay so much attention to that mindless “this is what the dumb and gullible people think” narrative, you say… what?
1) That you’re not pointing out the polls themselves, you’re pointing out that reporters are pointing out the polls? And,
2) You do this because this is simply what’s done during presidential election cycles?


Here's an example. I posted a piece last Thursday by the opinion columnist Pamela Paul, Hoping for a Miracle, Hurtling Toward Disaster. The piece consists of thirteen paragraphs, 1,020 words. Here's one sentence in the eighth paragraph that mentions polling:
Quote:
In an April poll, of the 70 percent of Americans who said Biden shouldn’t run again, 69 percent said it’s because of his old age.

And here's one sentence from paragraph eleven which also refers to polls:
Quote:
And a Washington nonprofit, No Labels, is gearing up for a third-party run with a platform that threatens to leach support from a Democratic candidate who is saddled with a favorable rating of a limp 41 percent.


Am I supposed to edit out references to polls?

Do you consider the column to be mindless babbling because the author referred to poll results to help make her point?

Does my posting that column mean that I'm "just babbling about the professional babblers"?

Point out one post I've made which consists of nothing but hand-wringing over opinion polls and I'll concede that you may have a point.

Journalists refer to polls because they present a part of the picture. Polls purport to give us real time information about popular opinion. Popular opinion often determines voter turnout and voter choice. Politicians and political strategists study the results and use them to refine their messaging. It's also necessary to point out that polling methods need to be carefully scrutinized and that societal changes have affected the rate of response and hence the accuracy of polling data. Effective use of poll results requires a certain amount of skepticism. For better or worse, they're part of the political landscape.

Bogulum
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2023 08:08 am
@hightor,
My concern with you vis-a-vis polling mostly arose from your doomsaying about the “electoral disaster” you fear might await Biden. A lot of your reasoning seemed to come from your reading of polls.

I wonder - does the fact that pollsters have been consistently wrong about Biden for the last several years factor into things? They seem to predict his collapse at every turn. The polls showed that he was going to be the reason for the democrats getting shellacked in the midterms - didn’t happen. They showed him losing the nomination to Sanders and were dead wrong. The polls have always sold Biden short.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2023 08:58 am
@Bogulum,
Quote:
A lot of your reasoning seemed to come from your reading of polls.

Not really. His relative unpopularity is just one of many factors which concern me. You know how it works in the USA – people will blame the president for a heat wave. In light of his real accomplishments this is troubling and I don't know how it can be remedied.

Do you have any concern about a well-funded campaign by a "No Labels" candidate? Biden won in a head-to-head match against the worst president we've ever had. I don't know how he'd do against a Scott or a Haley but having a centrist candidate on a third party ticket can't be good for his chances. We'll just have to see.

It's possible that the polling data is skewed because pollsters aren't reaching enough of the truly likely voters. It's possible that, when asked, people don't want to say they're voting for Biden or don't make up their minds until they're in a voting booth. I honestly don't know. But it's not just Biden who's confounding the polls:

Quote:
(...)

Confronted with the sense that the polls "failed" in 2016 and 2020 - and that the polls in 2020 failed to accurate measure the support for Republicans --- does this mean that public opinion is unknowable from public opinion polls? Or, perhaps even worse, that the polls are inherently skewed against Republicans?

The poor performance of pre-election polls in 2020 was consequential and unfortunate, but it does not necessarily impugn the accuracy of all public opinion polling. Pre-election polling is different from, and more difficult than, public opinion polling that seeks to gauge the opinions of citizens in a state (our country). In fact, some prominent polling organizations, such as Gallup, has put aside pre-election polling to focus exclusively on public opinion polling.

Pre-election polls must figure out two things. First, who is going to vote, and second, who those voters will vote for. A mistake in either will create polling errors and both are unknowable . In 2016, for example, not only was the higher turnout in Republican (rural) areas relative to Democratic (urban) areas unexpected by pre-election pollsters, but so too was the extent to which late-deciding voters would support President Trump. While a pre-election poll with too few Republicans is obviously unlikely to correctly predict the outcome of an election, an unavoidable issue with pre-election polling is that we can never be sure of how many Republicans is too few (or too many) until well after the actual election. Pre-election polls must inevitably make very consequential decisions about what they think the electorate is going to be without any way of knowing whether those decisions are correct.

These decisions matter because the people who answer surveys nowadays are often not a random sample of the electorate. Because the average respondent is older, more educated, whiter, and more female than the average voter, pollsters must make statistical adjustments to ensure that the pool of respondents better resemble the population of interest. For pre-election polls, this means making an educated guess about who is going to vote and what that implies about the composition of the electorate - a guess that can always be wrong.

(...)

Polling Problems and Why We Should Still Trust (Some) Polls

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2023 11:04 am
I should probably give this effing thread a break but these are responses to the Pamela Paul column in the NYT that I referred to earlier:

Quote:
To the Editor:

Re “The Presidential Rematch Nobody Wants,” by Pamela Paul (column, July 21):

Ms. Paul asks, “Have you met anyone truly excited about Joe Biden running for re-election?”

I am wildly enthusiastic about President Biden, who is the best president in my lifetime. His legislation to repair America’s infrastructure and bring back chip manufacturing are both huge accomplishments. Mr. Biden has done more to combat climate change, the existential issue of the day, than all the presidents who have gone before him.

Mr. Biden extracted us from the endless morass of Afghanistan. He has marshaled the free peoples of the world to stop the Russian takeover of Ukraine, giving dictators around the world pause.

Mr. Biden is the first president in a generation to really believe in unions and to emphasize the issues of working people, understanding how much jobs matter.

I might wish he were 20 years younger. I wish I were 20 years younger.

Most important, Joe Biden is an honorable man at a time when his biggest rivals do not know the meaning of the word. Being honorable is the essential virtue, without which youth or glibness do not matter.

I support his re-election with all my heart and soul.

Gregg Coodley
Portland, Ore.

************

To the Editor:

We endured (barely) four years of Donald Trump. Now we have Joe Biden, whose time has come and gone, and third party disrupters who know they cannot win but are looking for publicity.

Mr. Biden had his turn, and is exceedingly arrogant to believe that he is our best hope. His good sense and moral values won’t help if Donald Trump wins against him, which is eminently possible. The Democratic Party must nominate a powerfully charismatic candidate.

Mitchell Zuckerman
New Hope, Pa.

************

To the Editor:

I think Pamela Paul misses the point entirely. No, Biden supporters are not jumping up and down in a crazed frenzy like Trump supporters. That is actually a good thing. People like me who fully support President Biden’s re-election are sick and tired of the nonstop insanity that is Donald Trump. I’m very happy to have a sound, calm, upstanding president who actually gets things done for middle- and working-class Americans.

Excitement isn’t the answer to solving America’s problems. A president who gets things done is — like Joe Biden!

Sue Everett
Chattanooga, Tenn.

************

To the Editor:

Pamela Paul is spot on in her diagnosis of the depressing likelihood of Trump vs. Biden, Round 2.

The solution is money, as is true in all things in American politics. The Big Money donors in the Democratic Party should have a conference call with Team Biden and tell it, flat out, we’re not supporting the president’s re-election. It’s time for a younger generation of leaders.

Without their money, President Biden would realize that he cannot run a competitive campaign. But in a strange echo of how Republican leaders genuflect to Donald Trump and don’t confront him, the wealthy contributors to the Democratic Party do exactly the same with Mr. Biden.

Ethan Podell
Rutherford Island, Maine

***********

To the Editor:

In an ideal world, few would want a presidential rematch. Donald Trump is a menace, and it would be nice to have a Democratic nominee who is young, charismatic and exciting. But in the real world, I favor a Trump-Biden rematch, if Mr. Trump is the Republican nominee.

Mr. Biden might shuffle like a senior, and mumble his words, but he is a decent man who loves our country and has delivered beyond expectations.

In leadership crises, Americans yearn for shiny new saviors riding into town on a stallion. I prefer an honest old shoe whom we can count on to get us through an election of a lifetime.

Jerome T. Murphy
Cambridge, Mass.
The writer is a retired Harvard professor and dean who taught courses on leadership.

*************

To the Editor:

I am grateful to Pamela Paul for articulating and encapsulating how I, and probably many others, feel about the impending 2024 presidential race. I appreciate the stability that President Biden returned to the White House and our national politics. However, the future demands so much more than Mr. Biden or any other announced candidate can deliver.

Christine Cunha
Bolinas, Calif.

**************

To the Editor:

Pamela Paul presents many reasons, in her view, why President Biden is a flawed candidate, including that Mr. Biden’s “old age is showing.” As an example, she writes that during an interview on MSNBC he appeared to wander off the set.

Fox News has been pushing this phony notion relentlessly, claiming that he walked off while the host was still talking. In fact, the interview was over, Mr. Biden shook hands with the host, they both said goodbye, and while Mr. Biden left the set, the host faced the camera and announced what was coming up next on her show.

Howard Ehrlichman
Huntington, N.Y.


Bogulum
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jul, 2023 11:54 am
@hightor,
Thanks for posting those. I think those responses to Pamela capture the sentiments of tens of millions of us who know what’s at stake, and will storm the polls to vote for Joe Biden next year.
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Aug, 2023 03:09 pm
Maga wants power for power's sake. I don't think they're the least bit interested in improving conditions in the United States and will not recognize improvements Biden has made because it defeats their purpose.

Maga will put the worst possible slant on conditions as they exist in the US under Biden and are not above actually making things worse for the sake of appearance. They are not above anything legal or illegal to gain power.

I avoid using the term Republican party anymore because it's anything but. Maga are the true rinos, Republican in name only.
0 Replies
 
Bogulum
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2024 05:21 am
One of my favorite lines from the speech last night was at the end (I admit to only watching excerpts).
I was vice-president to the first African-American president, and the president with the first woman vice-president."

This is a bigger flex than Biden will ever get credit for in the MSM.

I respect Joe Biden's character. I don't think everyone will see it this way, but I really believe that not every powerful white man could sit as second fiddle to a Black president, be supportive and non-competitive, have his back and stay loyal to him. I think that not every powerful white man - accustomed to privilege and being deferred to - could take on a Black woman as a partner in power and actually appreciate, respect and honor her position.

Joe Biden may not be the only white man democrat who, given the opportunity, would have chosen to serve in those two capacities. But he is the one who did it. And I don't think it was all just political jockeying and pandering. Much more than any of that, I think it has to do with the character of the man.

Mame
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2024 01:05 pm
@Bogulum,
I admit to not knowing much about Biden or his character, so I can't comment on those aspects of your post. But I do wonder about his actually appreciating, respecting and honouring [Ms. Harris's] position. From what I've read, she's not been included, as a real VP would be, on international matters and she's basically been given 'side' jobs - unimportant, non-attention-getting files. Is this true or no?

He 'seems' like the genuine article but politicians are like icebergs - only the op 10% is seen, and of that, how much is true or authentic? I admit to being somewhat jaded in this arena.
 

 
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