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Is A Vote For Republicans A Vote To Destroy Democracy?

 
 
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 12:34 am
Is A Vote For Republicans A Vote To Destroy Democracy?

MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell discusses the power of Rob Reiner’s tweet,
469 days after a violent Republican mob attacked the Capitol.

Published April 20, 2022

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Type: Discussion • Score: 6 • Views: 447 • Replies: 19

 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 01:01 am
I hear they're calling him a meathead.

Alfred Garnett called his son in law a scouse git.

The actor who played him, Tony Booth, is Tony Blair's father in law.
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  4  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 03:59 am
@Real Music,
What Republican party?.

If you vote Republican you're voting for the cult of Trump.

And yes that is a vote to destroy Democracy.

Simple as that!!!
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  4  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 04:37 am
Apparently Piers Morgan has a new show coming out and his first interview is... who else, the traitor Trump.

I'll have to watch that.. even though I can't stand either of them.
Brandon9000
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 05:46 am
@eurocelticyankee,
Democracy means voting either for laws or for representatives who make laws. How would voting for Republicans destroy future voting???
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:08 am
@Brandon9000,
Because it seems to have become part of the Republican platform to attack election integrity. In the last election, a lot of Republicans stood up and said the elections were fair and the results valid, but those Republicans are being systematically forced out at all levels. We won't have them in 2024. Allowing this to continue will destroy our democratic institutions in short order. Honestly, it is happening much faster than I would have thought possible.
Brandon9000
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:13 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
Because it seems to have become part of the Republican platform to attack election integrity. In the last election, a lot of Republicans stood up and said the elections were fair and the results valid, but those Republicans are being systematically forced out at all levels. We won't have them in 2024. Allowing this to continue will destroy our democratic institutions in short order. Honestly, it is happening much faster than I would have thought possible.

Rubbish.

First of all, everyone has the right to suggest that an election may have contained cheating and, in fact, this right is vital.

Second, the Democrats almost couldn't go five minutes during Trump's term without suggesting that there had been election tampering. Furthermore, in many of the meetings in which electors cast votes in the 2016 presidential election, people in the room held up signs and screamed and had to be removed. Also, the first time George W. Bush was elected, people stated all over the news until his second election that he wasn't really the president, even though he got about half of the votes and the Supreme Court had been the proper government authority to decide the matter.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:14 am
@Brandon9000,
It's a paradox – can a democracy be overthrown democratically? Populists like Orban and autocrats like Erdogan have basically managed to do this.
Quote:
How would voting for Republicans destroy future voting???

Your answer shows how it could be accomplished by either party – by electing representatives who would agree to vote for laws that would limit access to the ballot. Currently Republicans seem particularly interested in restricting the hours and places that people can vote, in ways that appear to favor a higher partisan turnout.
Brandon9000
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:16 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

It's a paradox – can a democracy be overthrown democratically? Populists like Orban and autocrats like Erdogan have basically managed to do this.
Quote:
How would voting for Republicans destroy future voting???

Your answer shows how it could be accomplished by either party – by electing representatives who would agree to vote for laws that would limit access to the ballot. Currently Republicans seem particularly interested in restricting the hours and places that people can vote, in ways that appear to favor a higher partisan turnout.

So, according to you, allowing anyone to vote who wants to, but applying reasonable rules to make cheating harder, in most cases simply returning rules to their previous longstanding form, will destroy democracy. I respectfully disagree.
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:23 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
First of all, everyone has the right to suggest that an election may have contained cheating and, in fact, this right is vital.

It's also "vital" that these allegations are investigated and if found to be baseless, that these lies are exposed.
Quote:
Second, the Democrats almost couldn't go five minutes during Trump's term without suggesting that there had been election tampering.

Honestly, I don't recall this. Clinton won the popular vote and a few battleground states (80,000 voters) went from blue to red to give Trump a victory. You claim that "Democrats" suggested election tampering, and I'm sure there were a few who said this, but it wasn't the stated position of the Democratic Party by any means.
Quote:
Also, the first time George W. Bush was elected...

This is misleading because it was an election decided by the Supreme Court voting on partisan lines to protect the interests of one candidate.
Brandon9000
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:29 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
First of all, everyone has the right to suggest that an election may have contained cheating and, in fact, this right is vital.

It's also "vital" that these allegations are investigated and if found to be baseless, that these lies are exposed.

You can't get an investigation without suggesting first that something may be wrong. Furthermore, everyone who disagrees with you isn't lying, even if wrong. Suggesting that an audit should occur is part of the exercise of democracy, not it's destruction.

hightor wrote:

Quote:
Second, the Democrats almost couldn't go five minutes during Trump's term without suggesting that there had been election tampering.

Honestly, I don't recall this....

I don't know what news you've been watching because I heard people suggest incessantly that the Russians meddled enough to alter the results. Suggesting that tampering may have occurred is not the destruction of democracy.

hightor wrote:

Quote:
Also, the first time George W. Bush was elected...

This is misleading because it was an election decided by the Supreme Court voting on partisan lines to protect the interests of one candidate.

How dare you suggest that the election decision wasn't valid? You're trying to destroy our democracy.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:30 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
So, according to you, allowing anyone to vote who wants to, but applying reasonable rules to make cheating harder, in most cases simply returning rules to their previous longstanding form, will destroy democracy.

You left out what I said about partisanship. If you close precincts in a rural county and restrict the hours that the remaining ones stay open, that makes it more difficult for people with jobs or without transportation to vote. And if those people tend to be constituencies which vote for one party over the other you are, in effect, disenfranchising your opposition.
Brandon9000
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:36 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
So, according to you, allowing anyone to vote who wants to, but applying reasonable rules to make cheating harder, in most cases simply returning rules to their previous longstanding form, will destroy democracy.

You left out what I said about partisanship. If you close precincts in a rural county and restrict the hours that the remaining ones stay open, that makes it more difficult for people with jobs or without transportation to vote. And if those people tend to be constituencies which vote for one party over the other you are, in effect, disenfranchising your opposition.

No. Polling stations may be eliminated for all sorts of reasons. There should still be reasonable access. As to hours, as long as the hours enable most people to vote before or after reasonable job hours, it's fine. No one is trying to prevent people from voting who are eligible to vote. No one is trying to do anything other than return voting regulations to a traditional form which makes cheating harder. This is not a conspiracy to "destroy democracy."
Brandon9000
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 06:40 am
hightor wrote:

Quote:
I don't know what news you've been watching because I heard people suggest incessantly that the Russians meddled enough to alter the results.

...What I do remember is the "meddling" that took place on social media; it may have had some influence but there's no way to prove that it altered the results.

How dare you question the integrity of the election?!? You're threatening our democracy.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  6  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 07:39 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

First of all, everyone has the right to suggest that an election may have contained cheating and, in fact, this right is vital.

Free speech is vital even when it is conspiracy laden, but the idea of questioning election integrity is now a Republican core value. Republican Secretaries of State is states like Georgia, Wisconsin, Michigan and Arizona have come under attack by the lawmakers in their own party for saying the elections were fair, assertions backed with data. This isn't just free speech, it's become a Republican platform position and it is very dangerous.
Brandon9000 wrote:
Second, the Democrats almost couldn't go five minutes during Trump's term without suggesting that there had been election tampering.

I'm sorry, but this is BS. While there were the occasional outliers, the official party position, uniformly stated by pretty much every significant Democrat in office was "we lost a close one even though we won the popular vote". Obama, Clinton, Pelosi, senators and representatives, all of them. In 2016, it was Trump who was claiming election fraud and setting up commissions to investigate "buses of fake voters" even though he won. Decrying active efforts to disenfranchise voters is not the same as claiming honestly cast and tabulated votes are fraudulent every time you lose and often when you win.

I get it. I grew up Republican and most of my family still is. I saw these trends coming and ignored them for years before finally saying I just can't do this anymore and going independent. (For me it was the second Iraq war.) It's hard to look at your party and recognize things aren't right and easy to cherry pick things you like while ignoring the rest, but the Republican party of 2022 is not the party of 2014 (and definitely not the party of 1990). Hopefully enough Americans will realize this before we see further damage to our country.
neptuneblue
 
  5  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 07:54 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
No. Polling stations may be eliminated for all sorts of reasons. There should still be reasonable access. As to hours, as long as the hours enable most people to vote before or after reasonable job hours, it's fine. No one is trying to prevent people from voting who are eligible to vote. No one is trying to do anything other than return voting regulations to a traditional form which makes cheating harder. This is not a conspiracy to "destroy democracy."


I believe there are efforts to subjugate non-white voter turn out in order to mitigate Republican losses. This has NOTHING to do with cheating and everything to do with trying to regain power.

"Texas, a state where 39 percent of the population is Latino and 12 percent is African American, has closed 750 polling places"

"Arizona, a state where 30 percent of the population is Latino, 4 percent is Native American, and 4 percent is African American, has the most widespread reduction (–320) in polling places."

"Georgia, a state where 31 percent of the population is African American and 9 percent is Latino, has 214 fewer polling places."

https://civilrights.org/democracy-diverted/

Where have the polling places closed? You guessed it: non-white precincts.
engineer
 
  6  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 08:49 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

No one is trying to prevent people from voting who are eligible to vote.

This is not true. A real life example that I have personal experience of. My son went to App State University in Boone, NC. Boone is a small town with a large university in it. After concerns that the students were voting liberal and a takeover of the county voting decision making by Republicans in 2016, the polling places around the campus were all closed down and a new one was opened in a rural area of the county with limited parking and no access by public transportation. Predictably, in 2020 while voting turnout was up all over the state, participation in Watauga County plummeted. It's hard to argue that that was about election integrity and that is not an outlier.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 12:57 pm
@neptuneblue,
Quote:
This has NOTHING to do with cheating and everything to do with trying to regain power.

Especially since there's been no evidence of systematic cheating.
0 Replies
 
thack45
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 01:29 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

In 2016, it was Trump who was claiming election fraud and setting up commissions to investigate "buses of fake voters" even though he won.

And remind me, what ever happened with this? My memory isn't what it used to be, but IIRC they found all manner of chicanery, it was massive vindication for Trump, and the Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity is still functioning as a bulwark for public confidence in the US electoral system.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2022 05:00 pm
I personally judge things on patterns of behaviour. In my opinion there were a number of clear patterns of behaviour during Trumps turn:
- sacked anyone who disagree'd with him
- attacked anyone who disagreed with him
- constantly attacked news outlets
- numerous members of his own staff (and own party) resigning
- prior to the last election, said he wouldn't accept any election outcome other than a victory for himself
- then didn't accept any outcome...as it wasn't a victory for himself
- attacked the election process, even with members of his own party telling him they were the most secure in US history
- was caught on tape attempting to influence the outcome of the election
- lodged a plethora of election court cases, all rejected (or almost all rejected?)
- 'incited' a riot

Each of those series of events are consistent in pattern with each other. As part of a pattern of behaviour - Each and every one of the above are bad for democracy.

Strangely, none of this surprised me from the little I knew of his personality pre Presidency - they appear entirely consistent with his personality.

If he ever was once more elected president? I think he'd see it as a approval of his previous tactics, and intensify them. Democracy has already been significantly eroded over the last 30-40 years. That deterioration would only accelerate, maybe even to irretrievable levels.

That said - my view is that each of the major parties, likely in most to all western countries, have been eroding democracy over the last several decades. It's only a matter of the speed at which it occurs.
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