I’m an E.R. Doctor in Michigan, Where Unvaccinated People Are Filling Hospital Beds

@gingercookiegal,

Regarding Texas and the undocumented: BULLSHIT!

@bobsal u1553115,

Ah, so you are blind and have not seen the footage of all the illegals storming the border since president magoo instructed them to?

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@bobsal u1553115,

Bull **** and neither have you.

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How Singapore deals with unvaccinated Covid patients who end up in the hospital

No government-paid hospitalization for you!

*****

SINGAPORE - From Wednesday (Dec 8), those who are unvaccinated "by choice" against Covid-19 and become infected will have to pay for their own treatment. We answer some questions you may have on this topic.

Q: Does the rule apply to those who are already hospitalised before Dec 8?

A: This will apply to all unvaccinated Covid-19 patients admitted on or after Dec 8, 2021, to hospitals and Covid-19 treatment facilities. The Covid-19 medical bills for those who are ineligible for vaccination, such as children under 12 years old or those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons, will still be fully paid for by the Government.

(snip)

Q: What is the bill size like?

A: The bill size depends on the severity of your condition and where the care is rendered. The Ministry of Health (MOH) has said that Covid-19 patients who are unvaccinated by choice and end up in the intensive care unit (ICU) could be looking at a bill of around $25,000 before subsidies. The $25,000 is the median acute hospital bill size for those who require both ICU care and Covid-19 therapeutics, which can be pricey.

Q: Why is the Government making me pay for my Covid-19 medical bill?

A: When MOH made the announcement, it said that unvaccinated persons make up a sizeable majority of those who require intensive inpatient care, and they disproportionately contribute to the strain on the nation's healthcare resources.

Q: It's my choice to not get vaccinated. Why should I be penalised for this?

A: In the midst of a pandemic that has killed so many people, choosing to not be vaccinated against Covid-19 when there are safe and effective vaccines available has major implications for the health of others, especially vulnerable people who may not be able to get the vaccine themselves, according to an Oct 18 article published on the website of Gavi, the vaccine alliance that is co-leading the Covax initiative pushing for equitable access to Covid-19 vaccines.

"Thus, there is an argument from a human rights perspective for the freedom from harm caused by others, an equivalent argument for why it is illegal to drink and drive," it said.

The concept of doing something for the collective good breaks down if people start to make decisions based only on their individual beliefs, it said.

Globally, more than five million people infected with Covid-19 have died, including 771 in Singapore.

Link

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/askst-what-happens-if-i-am-unvaccinated-and-get-infected-with-covid-19

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Quote:

Covid-19 patients are dying 'at a rate we've never seen die before',
and it's taking a toll on health care workers

"We have more patients than we've ever had at any point, and we're seeing more people die at a
rate we've never seen die before," said Jim Dover, president and CEO of Sparrow Health System
in Lansing, Michigan.

"Since January, we've had about 289 deaths; 75% are unvaccinated people," Dover said. "And the
very few (vaccinated people) who passed away all were more than 6 months out from their shot.
So we've not had a single person who has had a booster shot die from Covid."

(cnn)

1 Reply

@Region Philbis,

from today's NYT Letters to the Editor:

To the Editor:

Dr. Rob Davidson writes: “With every shift, I see the strain people sick with Covid-19 put on my hospital. Their choice to not get vaccinated is not personal. It forces patients with ruptured appendixes and broken bones to wait for hours in my emergency department; it postpones surgeries for countless other people and burns out doctors and nurses.”

Hospitals need to establish triage guidelines that place higher priority on patients who are vaccinated and require treatment above Covid patients who come to the hospital and are unvaccinated. It is absolutely unacceptable that the irresponsible actions of unvaccinated people should harm the health of others. There must be consequences for their carelessness and disregard for others.

Rob Fenstermacher
White Plains, N.Y.

To the Editor:

Isn’t it ironic that the same anti-vaxxers who end up in hospitals willingly accept all of the medical interventions offered to them? They don’t want a vaccine to avoid getting sick but will accept intubation, drugs, oxygen and whatever else is offered to try to save their lives.

The excuses given for not taking the vaccine such as “it’s not a proven science” or “I don’t trust the drug companies” or “there isn’t enough evidence” sound hollow against the willingness to try novel approaches to saving their lives with new drugs and therapies.

Hold up a mirror to their hypocrisy.

Sally Baydala
Calgary, Alberta

2 Replies

@Mame,

Does the New York Times print letters from more than one point of view, or is Mame just selecting the letters that arouse her sense of correctness.

It feels like we are going through two layers of bias here... This is politically correct politically correct.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

The problem with these ideological filters is that you don't get a good understanding of the issue. All you are seeing is your viewpy bounced back at you.

You don't have to agree with the other side, but you should have a real understanding of both sides rather that a simplistic caricature.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

a)

Quote:

To the Editor:

Re “I’m an E.R. Doctor in Michigan, Where Unvaccinated People Are Filling Hospital Beds” (Opinion guest essay, nytimes.com, Dec. 8):

(NYT)
Three letters in the online edition

b)

Quote:

We encourage a diversity of voices and views in our letters. Letters should preferably be 150 to 175 words, should refer to an article that has appeared within the last seven days, and must include the writer's address and phone number. No attachments, please.

Letters should be exclusive to The New York Times or The International New York Times. We do not publish open letters or third-party letters.

Writers of letters selected for publication will be notified within a week. (Hint: Send submissions as soon as possible after the article appears!) Letters may be edited and shortened for space.

Because of the large volume of submissions we receive, we cannot personally acknowledge each submission, but we
do send an automated email reply.

(NYT)

c)

Quote:

Modern LTE forums differ little from those earlier counterparts. A typical forum will include a half-dozen to a dozen letters (or excerpts from letters). The letters chosen for publication usually are only a sample of the total letters submitted, with larger-circulation publications running a much smaller percentage of submissions and small-circulation publications running nearly all of the relatively few letters they receive. Editors generally read all submissions, but in general most will automatically reject letters that include profanity, libelous statements, personal attacks against individuals or specific organizations, that are unreasonably long (most publications suggest length limits ranging from 200 to 500 words) or that are submitted anonymously.

(wikipedia)

1 Reply

There was a third letter on this topic:

To the Editor:

Re “I’m an E.R. Doctor in Michigan, Where Unvaccinated People Are Filling Hospital Beds” (Opinion guest essay, nytimes.com, Dec. 8):

Dr. Rob Davidson’s experiences at a small Michigan hospital mirror my own working as a staff pharmacist at a small regional medical center in Minnesota.

Vaccination rates in our county are barely 40 percent. For more than a month we have seen our patient census at two to three times normal, with anywhere from a third to two-thirds of patients ill with Covid-19. The vast majority of them are unvaccinated.

Our emergency room is constantly full with all manner of patients, though those with Covid-19 or suspected Covid-19 make up the majority. The sickest become boarders in our E.R., too ill to go home but with no beds in our medical center or anywhere else in the state to send them to. Wait times in our E.R. have mushroomed from minutes to many hours.

Staff in every department (doctors, nurses, housekeeping, pharmacy, lab …) is under tremendous strain. Determination to give quality care coexists with fear of missing something important while caring for so many patients. The stress has become more evident daily in fatigue, momentary flares of temper and tears. We are drowning in patients.

Ken Vaselaar
Cambridge, Minn.

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@Walter Hinteler,

There is at least one ideological filter here. There are apparently no letters on the topic with which Mame disagrees.

I am wondering whether it is Mame's ideological filter we are seeing here, or that of the New York Times. Of course it could be both.

There are multiple perspectives outside the liberal bubble.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

That was all the letters there were on that topic.

1 Reply

@Mame,

When you agree with all of the letters to the editor, doesn't that give you pause? Hopefully you have a source of news that challenges you to consider other perspectives.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Hopefully you have a source of news that challenges you to consider other perspectives.

Those letters were about an earlier published and printed "opinion guest essay".

Why do you question Mame's 'source of news' when she quotes those letters?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

I am poking at the ideological bubble that you all have set up here.

It is one sided and it completely ignores the real issues involved. The caricatures of "anti-vaxxer" ignores the fact that real people are hesitant to get the vaccine for any number of reasons..Some of these people such as Native Americans and African Americans who have historical and cultural reason to refuse the vaccine are constiuencies to which liberals should be sympathetic.

1 Reply

@Mame,

Yes, they need to print letters which explain the positive aspects of vaccine refusal. It's actually good that elective surgeries are being postponed and there are long waits to be seen in the emergency room. Burnout suffered by medical workers is no big deal, it just weeds out the weak ones. If any priority is shown to patients it should definitely be given to those who were patriotic enough to stand up for their individual rights, the real Americans.

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There's an article, link below, on the demerits of vaccine mandates. It's worth a read.

To quote just a bit:

"Yet, government-imposed vaccine mandates can have serious long-term consequences – they can brew social unrest, increase mistrust in government, and scar societies as severely as the pandemic itself.

Most people who are hesitant to take the COVID-19 vaccine are not loud, somewhat unhinged anti-vaxxers who worry about being implanted with tracking chips through the jab. Many of them are sincerely concerned about introducing something new into their bodies, or simply want to understand the risks and benefits of the jab better. But vaccine mandates can change that. If governments impose vaccines on vaccine-hesitant people in a heavy-handed way, they may become more vulnerable to fake news or conspiracy theories, and end up joining more extreme anti-vax movements.

Rather than forcing the vaccine on people, policymakers should try to understand why people might be hesitant to take it, and focus their efforts on changing minds. This could help drive longer-term vaccination uptake, which will be crucial especially if annual COVID-19 vaccine boosters are needed.

The moment a government recommendation becomes a forced requirement, it changes the power dynamic between the state and the individual. Government-imposed mandates feel inherently sinister, even when the intentions behind them are wholly well-meaning. This is why even the World Health Organization (WTO) has cautioned against implementing COVID vaccine mandates, unless every other feasible option has been tried to convince people to get jabbed."

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/12/13/mandatory-vaccines-are-not-the-solution

Vaccines have been protested against since they were first introduced. You are always going to have some people for and some against against something. It's just the nature of the human being. However, as I've said, I believe the greater good of society outweighs any and all individual freedoms. That's why I'm for the mandates. No one is being forced to get vaccinated, but they should not be allowed to enter buildings or attend events where they can, and often do, infect others. It's still their choice not to get vaccinated, but they need to respect others' choices, as well.

In our province, we have vaccine mandates, however, private (retail) establishments can opt out of the program, allowing unvaccinated to enter. They simply have to follow the protocols in place prior to the mandates, i.e., 6 foot distancing between tables, 15% of fire code capacity, etc. The establishments following the mandates must put signage on their frontages, so it's easy to see who's in the program and who's not. Therefore, unvaccinated can still dine out and shop under those earlier protocols.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Some of these people such as Native Americans and African Americans who have historical and cultural reason to refuse the vaccine are constiuencies to which liberals should be sympathetic.

The IHS has 71 or fewer ventilators and only 33 intensive care unit (ICU) beds at the 24 hospitals it runs.
And in 2017, the Indian Health Service spent $3,332 per patient, according to a report by the National Congress of American Indians. By comparison, Medicare spent $12,829 per patient that year, and Medicaid spent $7,789 per patient.

That's a larger problem than what you called "historical and cultural reason to refuse the vaccine", especially, when you look at the numbers of Native Americans killed by the virus.

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@Mame,

Over here people who have English as a second language are being targeted, people of Asian descent are tal,ING about the anti Vaxx nonsense their elderly parents are spouting.

0 Replies

@Mame,

Quote:

Rather than forcing the vaccine on people, policymakers should try to understand why people might be hesitant to take it, and focus their efforts on changing minds. This could help drive longer-term vaccination uptake, which will be crucial especially if annual COVID-19 vaccine boosters are needed.

Basically this is what is going on. No one is being forced to take the vaccine. The fact that the militant refuseniks are being criticized by the vaccinated is a side show. The frustration of the medical professionals is real, as is the danger of the continued spread of infection.

1 Reply

I’m an E.R. Doctor in Michigan, Where Unvaccinated People Are Filling Hospital Beds

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