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Liberal extremism: Attacking sick people

 
 
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 11:30 am
Imagine if people were upset at obese people in the hospital.

It is true that obese people are far more likely to be hospitalized (with heart disease, strokes, and even covid) . And yet, no one in their right mind would complain that obese people were "taking up hospital beds" or laugh at how ironic it was that someone was dying of diabetes.

And yet, that is exactly what people on the left are doing with unvaccinated people. We have posts here talking about ironic deaths and complaining about the unvaccinated people taking up space in hospitals.

Why is this acceptable?

Like everything else in this extremist environment, it has become political.

And so these people are in a hospital dying of Covid. Rather than sadness and compassion and understanding in what is a tragedy, we get sarcasm and superiority.

You don't get people vaccinated by yelling at them any more than you get them to stop smoking or to lose weight. This political extremism is not only cruel, it accomplishes absolutely nothing.




 
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 11:40 am
The liberal bogeyman is the "Magatard", a mythical subhuman who is White, racist and ignorant. Once you label someone as subhuman it is easy to not have compassion when they get sick.

The truth is that vaccine resistance is a real problem that has complicated roots. There are many people in Native American communities who have good reason to resist public health initiatives. The same is true in African American and Latin American communities. And... even working class White people are human beings and equally deserving of understanding and care.

These are human beings with a diverse set of life experiences and understanding and beliefs.

A compassionate public health system will work to convince as many people to get vaccinated as possible. There should be outreach in all of these communities and education and reaching out to people where they are.

Attacking and insulting people is neither appropriate nor effective.

And when people are sick, they need care without judgement.
neptuneblue
 
  4  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 11:59 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Attacking and insulting people is neither appropriate nor effective.


Practice what you preach.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 12:06 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Why is this acceptable?

Because it's a pandemic; the unvaccinated population is perceived as prolonging the pandemic. Nobody catches obesity because they sat next to a fat person on a bus.
Quote:

You don't get people vaccinated by yelling at them

But no one is "yelling at them". People on this board have expressed their frustration at the politicization of public health where complying with medical authority is seen as a violation of "personal freedom".
Quote:
The liberal bogeyman is the "Magatard, a mythical subhuman who is White, racist and ignorant."

No, MAGAtards are very real and very human. Just like libtards, snowflakes, and oralloy's "progressives".
Quote:
There are many people in Native American communities who have good reason to resist public health initiatives. The same is true in African American and Latin American communities.

High rates of vaccination occur in all of those communities.
Quote:

A compassionate public health system will work to convince as many people to get vaccinated as possible. There should be outreach in all of these communities and education and reaching out to people where they are.

Duh...what do you think it is doing???
Quote:
Attacking and insulting people is neither appropriate nor effective.

Where has the public health system "attacked and insulted" anyone?
Quote:

And when people are sick, they need care without judgement.

Care refers to the effort made to help someone heal. Judgment refers to the capacity to form an opinion based on empirical evidence and sound conclusions. Not only are the terms not mutually exclusive — without the judgment that they are indeed sick they wouldn't be getting any care at all. Is that what you want?
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 12:24 pm
@hightor,
What I want you to say is that someone who is unvaccinated has the same right to care, compassion and respect that you have.

Hopefully we can agree on this point.
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 12:31 pm
Forcing someone to undergo a medical procedure against their will is a violation of their personal freedom.

You can argue that this step is necessary. You can argue that it is warranted. If you are arguing that a vaccine mandate doesn't take away personal freedom, you are denying reality.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 12:35 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
And yet, that is exactly what people on the left are doing with unvaccinated people. We have posts here talking about ironic deaths and complaining about the unvaccinated people taking up space in hospitals.
I know that you are talking about the USA, and how you see the situation there.
(Liberal extremism would the no. 1 on a list of oxymorons here.)

I don't know the situation in US hospitals, but we don't have 30% of ICU bedas taken by obese people or those with diabetes but with (mainly) unvaccinated covit patients.

And of course it's political, since mainly the extreme right parties oppose vaccination. (No, I don't laugh at the fact that two leader of one right-wing party are tested positive and in quarantine. But I do hope that they stay quite a long time.)
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 12:41 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
What I want you to say is that someone who is unvaccinated has the same right to care, compassion and respect that you have.

What I want you to say is that people are allowed to have opinions on matters of public health and have the right to express their frustration with anti-vaxxers. As I am not a health professional I'm not compelled to respect anyone.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 12:43 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

What I want you to say is that someone who is unvaccinated has the same right to care, compassion and respect that you have.


I don't know of anyone who doesn't agree with receiving care. Respect for their stupid decision - maybe not, compassion when they got ill due to that stupid decision - maybe/maybe not. But of course they have the same right to care.

Stop moralizing and portraying yourself as the only rational, fair person here. Are you aware of how smarmy and self-righteous you sound? You're as bad as oralloy, inferring we are libtards, progressives, etc.

Hightor's points are exactly right. Unvaccinated people who aren't following the recommended protocols are not helping, in fact, their actions are extending this damn pandemic which everyone is heartily sick of.

They don't have the right to infect others due to their stupidity, stubbornness, or mistaken sense of entitlement. So, yeah, if they aren't allowed in a restaurant - good, get out, go to a fast food outlet, go home and cook, while I safely eat my meal.

And quit calling it a 'medical procedure' - it's a damn jab in the arm. It doesn't hurt and it doesn't harm. People take other medicines made by these companies, people have been required to have other jabs - their position is unreasonable and unfathomable.

But... these ignorant asses can still get care in a hospital - no one disputes that.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 12:51 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Forcing someone to undergo a medical procedure against their will is a violation of their personal freedom.

Whipping your political allies into a frenzy and turning public health into a political game between us and them is the problem here. This is a dangerous game. Most people were looking forward to the vaccine rollout. But eventually the medical experts became the target of political criticism and getting people to refuse to be vaccinated was seen as the best way to defy public enemies like Dr. Fauci. If Fox news had chosen to support vaccination the number of people perceiving it as a violation of freedom would have been greatly diminished.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 12:58 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Forcing someone to undergo a medical procedure against their will is a violation of their personal freedom.
No-one is forced to undergo a medical procedure - here: vaccination, neither in Germany nor in the USA.

Yes, a vaccination is an intervention. But I have the right physical integrity as well. (Article 2 (2) of our constitution).

What kind of intervention for the unvaccinated is intubation, weeks of being held hostage on an oxygen machine, possibly lifelong dependence on heavy medication?

Freedom is also a daughter of reason. You don't have to have read Kant to understand that.
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 01:23 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
No one is being forced, you're correct. What they are objecting to is not being able to behave irresponsibly and endangering others by being refused entry to most public buildings.

But... you're not allowed in a swimming pool if you have measles all over your body. You are ticketed (or worse) if you drive without a seatbelt. You are ticketed (or worse) if you drink and drive. If you hold up a bank or a store you lose your freedom to roam about in society... how is the vaccine mandate any different? Officials have decided that this is the best way to keep society safe. Suck it up.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 01:34 pm
@Mame,
There is a simple protection that has been proven a billion times over: get vaccinated. And there are people who deny it. They insist on their freedom not to be vaccinated.

But at the same time, they also insist on the freedom to move around without restrictions. With what right?

THERE IS NO FREEDOM TO ENDANGER OTHERS.
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 01:55 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
1. Walter you say that Germans have a constitutional right to physical.integrity. This includes the right to refuse vaccination.

2. Germans also have a right to privacy..This means employers cant make employees disclose their status.

3. Now you are claiming people have no right to put ofhers at risk.

Can you admit these rights are in conflict?
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 02:30 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Can you admit these rights are in conflict?
That's why I mentioned Kant in my post.

The "conflict" as you call it is indeed quite commonm not only in Germany, and any law student everywhere will have to write several papers about it.

Generally speaking: our constitution ("Basic Law") allows restrictions to our basic rights, in some cases to a large extent. (In the Basic Law, this is usually written as this right/these rights may be restricted by or pursuant to a law.)
These laws and regulations are restricting our rights, however, they must be proportionate.

Since the Basic Law "applies to the entire German people", anyone who sees their fundamental rights violated can go to the Federal Constitutional Court.


Since actually now most covid-related regulations are done by the states, this -perhaps- concurrent legislative power could also be ruled by the Federal Constitutional Court.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 02:36 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Am I correct that in Germany employers can not impose vaccine mandates or even inquire about the vaccine status of their employees?

Does this mean that yes, they do "have the right to infect others"?
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 02:59 pm
@maxdancona,
1. A vaccine mandate can be ordered by federal law. (There is none.)

2. No, at least they have to inquire the covid vaccination status ( § 36 Paragraph 3 Infection Protection Act).

Generally speaking, since Wednesday only vaccinated, recovered or negatively tested persons are allowed to enter a business. And in some specially named institutions like schools, prisons, hospitals, doctor practises, homes für handicapped/children/elderly/ ... ...you must be vaccinated or recovered AND daily tested.

3. No, they don't have the right because we have got a criminal code.
maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 03:19 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, it is my understanding that for most employers in Germany it is illegal for a business to enquire of the vaccination status of their employees. I can give you multiple cites for this fact (although I shouldn't need to).

There are exceptions for a small number of businesses in areas like health care. But the great majority of businesses are prohibited from asking their employees for their vaccination status.

Do you accept that this is factually correct? A yes or no answer would be appreciated. You seem to be dodging around the fact that Germany guarantees the rights of unvaccinated people.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2021 03:23 pm
@maxdancona,
No.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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