John's Heaven or God's Heaven?

Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2021 08:46 am
If I can't make it, and my friends can't, and even those I look up to as being a much better person than I, what is the point?

John is a douchebag, and so I only trust the general points of his Revelation. Everything that the Bible teaches is at odds with the sort of God depicted here. It's like a Lovecraft story, where there is no hope, only madness.

Dammit bulma, I totally get your nagging need to know and that feeling that there is more and what is on offer here doesn’t compute. But realize that leaves you/us vulnerable to buying into bogus interpretations of the text. I think you bought a few of them. I’ll give you what I think on Revelations if you’re interested. I’m a little buzzed right now so typing is hard.

BTW, have you ever considered the possibility that the Tribulation may have already begun?
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 03:37 am
Uhhhh yeah, I've considered that possibility as more likely than not, actually.

This rush to vaccinate everyone is a bit too heavy-handed to be a real disease. Among other things, like the increased left vs right, us vs them mentality. In fact, even without ascribing good and evil to these factions, I get the sense that the tribalism and superstition is in fact the problem. We should be trusting God, not be in constant fear. Because fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, what other things we let make us afraid tend to own us. Or rather, what we fear, we tend to worship. Which is why I'm pretty cynical of all the hype the media is foisting on us. Almost like someone is trying to get us to worship (or at least be afraid) of something other than God.

And yes, maybe some of these interpretations are bogus. But John's reading feels a bit like... well, I read one author, I think it was either Piers Anthony or Orson Scott Card, and they had (It was the Homecoming series by Orson Scott Card)... okay, lemme try to finish this thought.
The Earth for whatever reason was failing, and they had a sort of super computer called the Oversoul who was instructing them in the technology they needed to survive and find a new world in space or whatever. This guy could teach them things by dreams or memories of whatever. But they found out that trying to insert someone else's dreams had issues. Like this guy had some dream where they were eating some fruit and it was soooooooo good, and the dream carried on about their ecstasy regarding this, and they relayed this info (my memories are shaky on the exact dream). So the leader or their son wanted to know why the Oversoul didn't pick them. So they got that dream... only the fruit that was sooooooo good actually tasted unpleasant to them, and the other editorials that were spoken in that other person's voice, made them a bit insane for awhile. (In order to have skills taught to them, they needed to find someone so practiced with fishing or bowmaking that they did it without thinking) The point being, you can't really base your beliefs on the visions of another person. You don't see things their way, and it makes you nuts.
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 07:28 am
I've considered that possibility as more likely than not, actually.

Yeah, me too.
bobsal u1553115
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 07:52 am
The G*D of Islam is our G*D. Whatever is right or wrong about how they approach Him is none of our business. It's really doesn't matter.

We need to get our own relationship with G*D in order first.

Are we clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, ministering to the sick, the lame, the imprisoned? Or are we punching flight attendants, waiting at Dealy Plaza last night for JFK to announce that JFK Jr was running as Trumps VP next election.
bobsal u1553115
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 07:56 am
Who said ignore and who said dive into it?

It was made obtuse for a reason: so no one could claim knowledge before the key to it has been released.

The other thing to remember how many translations and rerwrites and corrections and editings there've been made that may do more to obscure than open the meanings.
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Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 09:17 am
@bobsal u1553115,
No, he is NOT.


Most Christians believe that God is with and within all things, or immanent, and that he is not affected nor altered by the forces in the universe, referred to as transcendent. God is believed by Trinitarians to be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all in one persona while nontrinitarians on the other hand believe that each of the three is different from one another.

The term Allah originated from an Arabic article and a word that translates to “the sole deity, God” in English. Allah was thought to have associates such as sons and daughters among pagan Arabs during the pre-Islamic times. But this was later changed into Allah being the sole deity by the Islamic religion. Allah has 99 names and each one suggests Allah’s distinct quality.

Difference between God and Allah
The Christian God exposes Himself to human beings who have trusted in Him through Jesus Christ, His only son. These human beings may enjoy a personal relationship with God. On the other hand, Allah does not show himself to any human being. The Christian God is merciful and forgives sinners while Allah has made no terms for sinners to reconcile with Him if they do not apologize. God is separated from sin while Allah is not. Allah is contented with sinners apologizing for their sins even if this is done repeatedly. While the Christian God, although forgives, wants the sinners to repent and not do the same mistake again.

Even though God and Allah are two different entities, a lot of people think they are the same and one persona. For people to know and understand God and Allah’s character, they need to read the holy book of each religion which is the Bible for Christianity and the Qur’an for Islam.

And what do we get when we read these?

Well, we understand that Jesus is God (but not the Father), and part of the Trinity. We understand that Jesus gave his life on the cross for our sins.

On the other, Allah tells us that he has no son. That Jesus made Judas die on the cross for his sins. And that he is the greatest deceiver. In that, he is telling the truth.

Most relevant today, Allah tells people to keep their faces covered. God tells us that has been concealed (veiled, deceived, hidden), we shout from the rooftops. Islam is Mystery Babylon, the cult of Satan.
God tells us that we are just around the power of angels, we are princes of Heaven. Allah tries to make people wear the same masks as dogs wear. Muzzles, to keep them from speaking the truth of God.

These things do matter.

The Jews had a curtain to prevent people from seeing the face of God. This curtain represented sin. Today, we are trying to force the curtain on our own faces.
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Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2021 06:50 am
Since this has stalled, let me better explain why I suspect John's depiction of a New Heaven and New Earth.

Revelation is an allegory for the sort of on again off again relationship that human beings have had with God since the Beginning. It's an attempt to depict the End. But like the song "I gave my love a cherry," the story actually has no end. We always have struggles with God, we also always love God. It's the misguided obsession with things that displaces God sometimes, but these things historically become worthless. In Germany, just short of the Nazi regime, the government literally ran the economy to the point where to send a letter could be (at least) 36 billion marks. Anyway, loss of topic. We are made in God's image because as God himself says, "It is not Good for Man to be alone." When we strip away everything, it's just a Man in Love with a Woman. God is both of them, but God is no longer alone. However the relationship sucks, because humand are fixated on their shitty little lives working for things that don't matter, worried for things that don't matter.

The Revelation describes a breakup where God gets fed up. If we are to take the seven years of tribulation seriously, it's actually 13-16 years. Why? Lemme explain the math. 3 1/2 years describes a presidential term. A typical term has four years, but the last part of the year is called the lame duck. The Bible typically describes things in whole numbers, using halfs to describe something split. As a student of the Tao, this means that the term is worst for everyone, both the dependent liberal and the typical conservative. The 3 1/2 then means two things. First, each term is characterized by split government. Second, that we alternate between the most extreme form of government, what I see as torture and what my opponent sees as torture. But a moderate sees the whole as torture. It's an (Obama)/Trump/Biden/(Trump?)/(Harris?) presidency. This timeline depends on where you start and how it ends. For instance, we could start with Obama's last year, and assume Trump gets reelected. For a liberal that's 7 years of Trump rule. We can start at Biden and continue at Harris. That's also 7 years. Or we can say that Trump gets reelected but this time, he goes extreme, and is not at all how we first imagined. In any case, this is either 16 complete years, 7 years, or 13 years, because what we're actually looking at is the funny math of divided perception. These are seven split years.
During this time, there will be two Beasts. A Beast of the sea, an object made to seem like a living thing. For example, COVID came from across the sea (China), and even those who say it is not real (it's not real) are fixated on the ruin it has made of the economy and the crazy level of state control involved. There is a vaccination scheme to attempt to pur an RNA-sequencing graphene-filled (to the point where some people are magnetic) "vaccine" on people. This is fearmongering. This first Beast is an object that speaks blasphemies. Mainly that God does not have the ability to heal any disease, and that one should fear anything aside from God. This, however is mostly a physical mark. Those who take this Mark are not committed to the Beast, they simply want to save their own lives. "For whoever would save their life will lose it, and whoever would lose their life would save it." Those not worried about the risk aren't getting the jab. The second Beast, is a Beast of the Earth, one that looks like a man. This is about the leader cult. We choose our perfect president to lead us into the system we want. We give our loyalty to his money (some theories on a cryptocurrency, and how an oath will be made) or to the man himself. But in the former case, Jesus spoke about making oaths. These are a Mark that defines loyalty, and loyalty to something other than God. Even though this one is more tempting to those who are religious (after all, Man is made in God's image), we are not intended to worship people as idols. And money is to be spent as you wish, but this money system will have strings attached about using it in some altruistic wa ys. Such an oath is an attempt to value prosperity over God's favor. But then we see two seemingly opposite models, an Antichrists and a Christ, the Whore of Babylon and the Bride of Christ. These are the defiled form and the cleaned up version. Why studying Taoism helps, you see alot of dualism here. For instance, those taken to heaven and those buried in the earth during the thousand years of peace. But all of us have bee b given grace, and all of us have fallen short. Who then is saved? Everyone and no one. Our spirits will be taken to heaven, our bodies left in the earth. Everyone will die. As I say, this is a story of God trying to resolve things with humanity. But the prophecy may turn out a bunch of different ways. We do have free will, and things would be outright horrible if God took that away, just so we'd fit in sone dollhouse version of Heaven. What I see as the New Heaven and New Earth then, is a mending of the relationship. Where God indwells in the love of your life. Where you walk together on the beach and have romantic happy times. But never fighting again? Nah, it happens. The difference is not that free will is gone, but that there is never again a true rift. You htg can make up, and the world ðoes not stand in your way.
Frank Apisa
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2021 08:57 am
The idea that "Jesus died on the cross for our sins"...and the notion that someone (ANYONE) had to die for OUR "sins"...

...ranks up there with the notion of Zeus taking the form of a bull or a swan so that he could bang Europa and Leda.

It is beyond comprehension how adults can buy into that nonsense.
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2021 09:20 am
@Frank Apisa,
So it's not an alien after all, it's Zeux who says, "Take me to your Leda."
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Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 06:31 am
I have only the vague outlines of what John was describing overall. The little I do see clearly, is only there as it happens, and that is probably by design. The book is probably there only so we could recognize the signs as they happen. And of course there have been countless attempts at complete interpretation over the years, all of which have proved false.

As for the false profit, Antichrist, etc, I have no idea as to their identities. But I don’t think any of them will come from our 'leaders'. I can’t envision the whole 'world' turning to any of them, Nationalism is getting worse, we wouldn’t trust any of them that were not of 'our own' country. I can’t think of any national leader who would be acceptable to everyone.

They will probably come out of 'left field' from a place we never expected. I CAN envision everyone getting so disgusted with our 'leaders' ineptitude that they turn to someone who demonstrates they can actually make things work, who laughs at the stupidity of every national leader and only has reverence for 'results'. The world might accept someone like that. Not that I am making a prediction of who, but it would have to be a figure like Elon Musk. He’s just the only one I can think of that might qualify as a universally respected 'world fixer'.

But it'll be clear when it happens if we wait and watch.

I was kind of shocked that you see the 1000 year reign as being a time when the 'saved' were taken away. I can’t see that in the story at all.
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 07:44 am
The thing most movies misinform people on is that there is Antichrist (singular). They show a single world leader or something. But the text uses the word Antichrists. Plural. As in, we shouldn't look for some one world leader. Nor one spiritual leader.
The body of Christ is made of those part of Christ. The Antichrists are those set apart from God's plan. Frank is one, every time he mentions that we can't REALLY be sure of what we believe. So am I or you, every time we insist on our own vision (for example, many of the Jews of Jesus's time thought the Messiah would be some kind of freedom fighter, which is part of why they can't accept him even today) rather than God's vision.

Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Fauci, all of these idols we turn to are Antichrists. And so are we when we accept left vs right divide, instead of realizing "No king but King Jesus."

When we recognize that God cares **** about politics, and in fact tells the people of Israel that kings will raid what they have and force us to serve in the military. That's at best. An obscure book outside the Bible tells of life during the time of Babel. The guy getting everyone to build the Tower of Babel, it is said want to turn people's eyes away from God, so he oppressed them to get them to fear government. God allows our governments ( which is why Romans tells us not to try to riot or overthrow stuff) to remind us how trying to rule with kings is an experiment doomed ultimately to fail, and fail worldwide.

What I am saying is that the story tells that the world is empty. The righteous are in Heaven, the unrighteous are dead. This is a funny way of saying that nobody is alive on this Earth during this time. A great Light (Jesus) will descend on the Earth. And no righteous will stay there but be taken to Heaven to be in God's presence. But no unrighteous will stay either. "All have fallen short, all have sinned." Who then is worthy? But all are also forgiven. How then to explain this? Well Paul talks about sarx ( the flesh), and how wicked it is. Our wicked bodies will not be able to enter Heaven. But only the truly evil, I think, would also have their spirits excluded.

John thinks that this is a time when grace runs out. But it says that people are either taken to heaven or they will be destroyed by meteors or other natural forces. Then we hear that Jesus will put down rebellion and rule with an iron rod. This is very tyrannical language... but all of it is also at odds with what the Gospel and Letters say. "Nothing can separate us from the love of God." Not, nothing, but ohhh well there's end times so God breaks his promise. Nothing as in nothing. So is John lying to us? No, when we hear about the rebellion being put down, we are talking about the system that is the State. Where money inflates to absurd degrees robbing people of their livelihood . Where taxes crush people, and where people are distracted from God. Like with Nimrod. Jesus will crush this rebellion. Jesus talks about leaders lording over others, but in his kingdom it's the servants who have the power.

I think John saw a number of garbled images in his vision, which is why they are so weird and hard to understand. But I'm also not sure he even had a picture of the time after the millennium, just a vague feeling of separation out into bliss and destruction. To John, bliss represented the removal of things he saw as unpleasant (like sailing through unsteady seas). But to me, who sees these things as part of the flavor of life, the answer is not their removal but a way to make them bearable. Prayer that works. Being able to meet God in person without social distancing and unmasked.

If you ask me who or what the Antichrist is, I would tell you it's everyone who employs this Satanic phrasing about covering faces and staying away from one another. Our faces are made in the image of God. We see God through them. Being told to stay away is at odds with our divine purpose of loving each other.

Revelation talks about a Third Temple. We are already seeing it. The second Temple (not sure what the first was like) had a large curtain in it, which represented the sin separating humankind from the Holy of Holies, where God resised. That is, we can't see God, until Jesus came and ripped the curtain when he died. The excessive cleanliness, the curtain on everyone's face, this is a Temple not of human hands but of the Jewish mindset of cleanliness and separation.
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 09:42 am
Ya lost me somewhere in there..
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 02:47 pm

It's like this.
The Bible says that during the millennium people will seek death but be unable to find it. Hold up, hold up. Why are people trying to commit suicide?

It's because our vision of what a utopia might look like might be completely different from what God sees as perfect. This implies that there are people there who actually do not want or deserve to be there.

But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

and directly before that...


8When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last ones hired and moving on to the first.’

9The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when the original workers came, they assumed they would receive more. But each of them also received a denarius.

11On receiving their pay, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’

13But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. 15Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

That is, when evening comes, God will not only pay everyone their reward but may in fact give people who seem not to want or deserve their reward.

While most of the interpreters of Revelations see this period as a withdrawal of grace, I completely disagree. God has made a covenant with both the Jews and the Christians. He has offered Jesus as a sacrifice, once for all, for our sins. To withdraw this, especially due to a trick, would be breaking his vow. We have choices in this life. Unlike our politicians, God keeps his promises.
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But when we cross-reference this passage, we find out...
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out…

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand…

...It is not possible to deceive the elect. Just as it is not possible to withdraw Christ's grace. God himself intended this, and to say otherwise is to testify against God and the Holy Spirit.

This is not the withdrawal of grace from the righteous. That is, God has not suddenly said, "I know I forgive your sins then, but you don't measure up. So I'm gonna punish you now." Rather it is a condemnation of the wickedness of the world itself.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

With all my heart, I long for Jesus. I long to belong, and to be loved. Revelation speaks about a Mark and people being cast out for not taking the Mark (not being able to buy and sell), and then later those with the Mark are cast out (of heaven). This is a simple reversal of fortune, not some scheme to punish people for... pardon the expression, the hell of it.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

If there were anything, anything, that I could do to separate from God, this would be righteousness based on the Law. But there isn't, nothing you can do is unforgivable but blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (but neither will I intentionally do anything to distance myself from God, because I love God).

The deception of Revelation, then, is not that people are tricked into taking the Mark. It is believing that the Mark could possibly separate us from God in the first place!

The Mark is a symbol of disobedience to God. But it is a manmade object, and nothing can separate us from God...
31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.") 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...We can only be convinced of a delusion that they can.

John's Revelation is talking about an end times where people are so convinced of their own evil that they have to be destroyed (I do not believe this destruction is punishment, nor permanent, but rather a way to resolve the condition of being trapped in sin). They are stuck, because they are blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. I mentioned blaspheming against the Holy Spirit twice, what do I mean?
Jesus says this is the only unpardonable sin. This is assuming that God or Jesus WON'T do something (like forgive sins). That we are too terrible a person. Or that someone else is. The reason God won't forgive this sin is because it's basically a trap of hubris that cannot be forgiven until it is resolved. We define God's nature or ability, effectively typecasting him.
This, this is why I object to John's Revelation. Because it is basically an affront to the teaching of grace. We have to accept it as an abstract depiction of end times, but understand that much of it is based on false perceptions.
I've read it until I literally went mad, and I can only conclude that it's a sort of incomplete picture of God's plan of grace. It only deals in the righteous, not how God will resolve the problems of the sinner. And this question must be resolved, as I do not deem myself worthy enough to be called righteous at end times. Would I also be tossed into a lake of fire? Or should I trust that nothing I can do will separate me from the love of God?

Either all of us will fail and fall short, or God has a plan even for those tossed into a lake of fire.
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