John's Heaven or God's Heaven?

Reply Tue 2 Nov, 2021 08:46 am
If I can't make it, and my friends can't, and even those I look up to as being a much better person than I, what is the point?

John is a douchebag, and so I only trust the general points of his Revelation. Everything that the Bible teaches is at odds with the sort of God depicted here. It's like a Lovecraft story, where there is no hope, only madness.

Dammit bulma, I totally get your nagging need to know and that feeling that there is more and what is on offer here doesn’t compute. But realize that leaves you/us vulnerable to buying into bogus interpretations of the text. I think you bought a few of them. I’ll give you what I think on Revelations if you’re interested. I’m a little buzzed right now so typing is hard.

BTW, have you ever considered the possibility that the Tribulation may have already begun?
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 03:37 am
Uhhhh yeah, I've considered that possibility as more likely than not, actually.

This rush to vaccinate everyone is a bit too heavy-handed to be a real disease. Among other things, like the increased left vs right, us vs them mentality. In fact, even without ascribing good and evil to these factions, I get the sense that the tribalism and superstition is in fact the problem. We should be trusting God, not be in constant fear. Because fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, what other things we let make us afraid tend to own us. Or rather, what we fear, we tend to worship. Which is why I'm pretty cynical of all the hype the media is foisting on us. Almost like someone is trying to get us to worship (or at least be afraid) of something other than God.

And yes, maybe some of these interpretations are bogus. But John's reading feels a bit like... well, I read one author, I think it was either Piers Anthony or Orson Scott Card, and they had (It was the Homecoming series by Orson Scott Card)... okay, lemme try to finish this thought.
The Earth for whatever reason was failing, and they had a sort of super computer called the Oversoul who was instructing them in the technology they needed to survive and find a new world in space or whatever. This guy could teach them things by dreams or memories of whatever. But they found out that trying to insert someone else's dreams had issues. Like this guy had some dream where they were eating some fruit and it was soooooooo good, and the dream carried on about their ecstasy regarding this, and they relayed this info (my memories are shaky on the exact dream). So the leader or their son wanted to know why the Oversoul didn't pick them. So they got that dream... only the fruit that was sooooooo good actually tasted unpleasant to them, and the other editorials that were spoken in that other person's voice, made them a bit insane for awhile. (In order to have skills taught to them, they needed to find someone so practiced with fishing or bowmaking that they did it without thinking) The point being, you can't really base your beliefs on the visions of another person. You don't see things their way, and it makes you nuts.
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 07:28 am
I've considered that possibility as more likely than not, actually.

Yeah, me too.
bobsal u1553115
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 07:52 am
The G*D of Islam is our G*D. Whatever is right or wrong about how they approach Him is none of our business. It's really doesn't matter.

We need to get our own relationship with G*D in order first.

Are we clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, ministering to the sick, the lame, the imprisoned? Or are we punching flight attendants, waiting at Dealy Plaza last night for JFK to announce that JFK Jr was running as Trumps VP next election.
bobsal u1553115
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 07:56 am
Who said ignore and who said dive into it?

It was made obtuse for a reason: so no one could claim knowledge before the key to it has been released.

The other thing to remember how many translations and rerwrites and corrections and editings there've been made that may do more to obscure than open the meanings.
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Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2021 09:17 am
@bobsal u1553115,
No, he is NOT.


Most Christians believe that God is with and within all things, or immanent, and that he is not affected nor altered by the forces in the universe, referred to as transcendent. God is believed by Trinitarians to be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all in one persona while nontrinitarians on the other hand believe that each of the three is different from one another.

The term Allah originated from an Arabic article and a word that translates to “the sole deity, God” in English. Allah was thought to have associates such as sons and daughters among pagan Arabs during the pre-Islamic times. But this was later changed into Allah being the sole deity by the Islamic religion. Allah has 99 names and each one suggests Allah’s distinct quality.

Difference between God and Allah
The Christian God exposes Himself to human beings who have trusted in Him through Jesus Christ, His only son. These human beings may enjoy a personal relationship with God. On the other hand, Allah does not show himself to any human being. The Christian God is merciful and forgives sinners while Allah has made no terms for sinners to reconcile with Him if they do not apologize. God is separated from sin while Allah is not. Allah is contented with sinners apologizing for their sins even if this is done repeatedly. While the Christian God, although forgives, wants the sinners to repent and not do the same mistake again.

Even though God and Allah are two different entities, a lot of people think they are the same and one persona. For people to know and understand God and Allah’s character, they need to read the holy book of each religion which is the Bible for Christianity and the Qur’an for Islam.

And what do we get when we read these?

Well, we understand that Jesus is God (but not the Father), and part of the Trinity. We understand that Jesus gave his life on the cross for our sins.

On the other, Allah tells us that he has no son. That Jesus made Judas die on the cross for his sins. And that he is the greatest deceiver. In that, he is telling the truth.

Most relevant today, Allah tells people to keep their faces covered. God tells us that has been concealed (veiled, deceived, hidden), we shout from the rooftops. Islam is Mystery Babylon, the cult of Satan.
God tells us that we are just around the power of angels, we are princes of Heaven. Allah tries to make people wear the same masks as dogs wear. Muzzles, to keep them from speaking the truth of God.

These things do matter.

The Jews had a curtain to prevent people from seeing the face of God. This curtain represented sin. Today, we are trying to force the curtain on our own faces.
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Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2021 06:50 am
Since this has stalled, let me better explain why I suspect John's depiction of a New Heaven and New Earth.

Revelation is an allegory for the sort of on again off again relationship that human beings have had with God since the Beginning. It's an attempt to depict the End. But like the song "I gave my love a cherry," the story actually has no end. We always have struggles with God, we also always love God. It's the misguided obsession with things that displaces God sometimes, but these things historically become worthless. In Germany, just short of the Nazi regime, the government literally ran the economy to the point where to send a letter could be (at least) 36 billion marks. Anyway, loss of topic. We are made in God's image because as God himself says, "It is not Good for Man to be alone." When we strip away everything, it's just a Man in Love with a Woman. God is both of them, but God is no longer alone. However the relationship sucks, because humand are fixated on their shitty little lives working for things that don't matter, worried for things that don't matter.

The Revelation describes a breakup where God gets fed up. If we are to take the seven years of tribulation seriously, it's actually 13-16 years. Why? Lemme explain the math. 3 1/2 years describes a presidential term. A typical term has four years, but the last part of the year is called the lame duck. The Bible typically describes things in whole numbers, using halfs to describe something split. As a student of the Tao, this means that the term is worst for everyone, both the dependent liberal and the typical conservative. The 3 1/2 then means two things. First, each term is characterized by split government. Second, that we alternate between the most extreme form of government, what I see as torture and what my opponent sees as torture. But a moderate sees the whole as torture. It's an (Obama)/Trump/Biden/(Trump?)/(Harris?) presidency. This timeline depends on where you start and how it ends. For instance, we could start with Obama's last year, and assume Trump gets reelected. For a liberal that's 7 years of Trump rule. We can start at Biden and continue at Harris. That's also 7 years. Or we can say that Trump gets reelected but this time, he goes extreme, and is not at all how we first imagined. In any case, this is either 16 complete years, 7 years, or 13 years, because what we're actually looking at is the funny math of divided perception. These are seven split years.
During this time, there will be two Beasts. A Beast of the sea, an object made to seem like a living thing. For example, COVID came from across the sea (China), and even those who say it is not real (it's not real) are fixated on the ruin it has made of the economy and the crazy level of state control involved. There is a vaccination scheme to attempt to pur an RNA-sequencing graphene-filled (to the point where some people are magnetic) "vaccine" on people. This is fearmongering. This first Beast is an object that speaks blasphemies. Mainly that God does not have the ability to heal any disease, and that one should fear anything aside from God. This, however is mostly a physical mark. Those who take this Mark are not committed to the Beast, they simply want to save their own lives. "For whoever would save their life will lose it, and whoever would lose their life would save it." Those not worried about the risk aren't getting the jab. The second Beast, is a Beast of the Earth, one that looks like a man. This is about the leader cult. We choose our perfect president to lead us into the system we want. We give our loyalty to his money (some theories on a cryptocurrency, and how an oath will be made) or to the man himself. But in the former case, Jesus spoke about making oaths. These are a Mark that defines loyalty, and loyalty to something other than God. Even though this one is more tempting to those who are religious (after all, Man is made in God's image), we are not intended to worship people as idols. And money is to be spent as you wish, but this money system will have strings attached about using it in some altruistic wa ys. Such an oath is an attempt to value prosperity over God's favor. But then we see two seemingly opposite models, an Antichrists and a Christ, the Whore of Babylon and the Bride of Christ. These are the defiled form and the cleaned up version. Why studying Taoism helps, you see alot of dualism here. For instance, those taken to heaven and those buried in the earth during the thousand years of peace. But all of us have bee b given grace, and all of us have fallen short. Who then is saved? Everyone and no one. Our spirits will be taken to heaven, our bodies left in the earth. Everyone will die. As I say, this is a story of God trying to resolve things with humanity. But the prophecy may turn out a bunch of different ways. We do have free will, and things would be outright horrible if God took that away, just so we'd fit in sone dollhouse version of Heaven. What I see as the New Heaven and New Earth then, is a mending of the relationship. Where God indwells in the love of your life. Where you walk together on the beach and have romantic happy times. But never fighting again? Nah, it happens. The difference is not that free will is gone, but that there is never again a true rift. You htg can make up, and the world ðoes not stand in your way.
Frank Apisa
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2021 08:57 am
The idea that "Jesus died on the cross for our sins"...and the notion that someone (ANYONE) had to die for OUR "sins"...

...ranks up there with the notion of Zeus taking the form of a bull or a swan so that he could bang Europa and Leda.

It is beyond comprehension how adults can buy into that nonsense.
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2021 09:20 am
@Frank Apisa,
So it's not an alien after all, it's Zeux who says, "Take me to your Leda."
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Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 06:31 am
I have only the vague outlines of what John was describing overall. The little I do see clearly, is only there as it happens, and that is probably by design. The book is probably there only so we could recognize the signs as they happen. And of course there have been countless attempts at complete interpretation over the years, all of which have proved false.

As for the false profit, Antichrist, etc, I have no idea as to their identities. But I don’t think any of them will come from our 'leaders'. I can’t envision the whole 'world' turning to any of them, Nationalism is getting worse, we wouldn’t trust any of them that were not of 'our own' country. I can’t think of any national leader who would be acceptable to everyone.

They will probably come out of 'left field' from a place we never expected. I CAN envision everyone getting so disgusted with our 'leaders' ineptitude that they turn to someone who demonstrates they can actually make things work, who laughs at the stupidity of every national leader and only has reverence for 'results'. The world might accept someone like that. Not that I am making a prediction of who, but it would have to be a figure like Elon Musk. He’s just the only one I can think of that might qualify as a universally respected 'world fixer'.

But it'll be clear when it happens if we wait and watch.

I was kind of shocked that you see the 1000 year reign as being a time when the 'saved' were taken away. I can’t see that in the story at all.
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 07:44 am
The thing most movies misinform people on is that there is Antichrist (singular). They show a single world leader or something. But the text uses the word Antichrists. Plural. As in, we shouldn't look for some one world leader. Nor one spiritual leader.
The body of Christ is made of those part of Christ. The Antichrists are those set apart from God's plan. Frank is one, every time he mentions that we can't REALLY be sure of what we believe. So am I or you, every time we insist on our own vision (for example, many of the Jews of Jesus's time thought the Messiah would be some kind of freedom fighter, which is part of why they can't accept him even today) rather than God's vision.

Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Fauci, all of these idols we turn to are Antichrists. And so are we when we accept left vs right divide, instead of realizing "No king but King Jesus."

When we recognize that God cares **** about politics, and in fact tells the people of Israel that kings will raid what they have and force us to serve in the military. That's at best. An obscure book outside the Bible tells of life during the time of Babel. The guy getting everyone to build the Tower of Babel, it is said want to turn people's eyes away from God, so he oppressed them to get them to fear government. God allows our governments ( which is why Romans tells us not to try to riot or overthrow stuff) to remind us how trying to rule with kings is an experiment doomed ultimately to fail, and fail worldwide.

What I am saying is that the story tells that the world is empty. The righteous are in Heaven, the unrighteous are dead. This is a funny way of saying that nobody is alive on this Earth during this time. A great Light (Jesus) will descend on the Earth. And no righteous will stay there but be taken to Heaven to be in God's presence. But no unrighteous will stay either. "All have fallen short, all have sinned." Who then is worthy? But all are also forgiven. How then to explain this? Well Paul talks about sarx ( the flesh), and how wicked it is. Our wicked bodies will not be able to enter Heaven. But only the truly evil, I think, would also have their spirits excluded.

John thinks that this is a time when grace runs out. But it says that people are either taken to heaven or they will be destroyed by meteors or other natural forces. Then we hear that Jesus will put down rebellion and rule with an iron rod. This is very tyrannical language... but all of it is also at odds with what the Gospel and Letters say. "Nothing can separate us from the love of God." Not, nothing, but ohhh well there's end times so God breaks his promise. Nothing as in nothing. So is John lying to us? No, when we hear about the rebellion being put down, we are talking about the system that is the State. Where money inflates to absurd degrees robbing people of their livelihood . Where taxes crush people, and where people are distracted from God. Like with Nimrod. Jesus will crush this rebellion. Jesus talks about leaders lording over others, but in his kingdom it's the servants who have the power.

I think John saw a number of garbled images in his vision, which is why they are so weird and hard to understand. But I'm also not sure he even had a picture of the time after the millennium, just a vague feeling of separation out into bliss and destruction. To John, bliss represented the removal of things he saw as unpleasant (like sailing through unsteady seas). But to me, who sees these things as part of the flavor of life, the answer is not their removal but a way to make them bearable. Prayer that works. Being able to meet God in person without social distancing and unmasked.

If you ask me who or what the Antichrist is, I would tell you it's everyone who employs this Satanic phrasing about covering faces and staying away from one another. Our faces are made in the image of God. We see God through them. Being told to stay away is at odds with our divine purpose of loving each other.

Revelation talks about a Third Temple. We are already seeing it. The second Temple (not sure what the first was like) had a large curtain in it, which represented the sin separating humankind from the Holy of Holies, where God resised. That is, we can't see God, until Jesus came and ripped the curtain when he died. The excessive cleanliness, the curtain on everyone's face, this is a Temple not of human hands but of the Jewish mindset of cleanliness and separation.
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 09:42 am
Ya lost me somewhere in there..
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 02:47 pm

It's like this.
The Bible says that during the millennium people will seek death but be unable to find it. Hold up, hold up. Why are people trying to commit suicide?

It's because our vision of what a utopia might look like might be completely different from what God sees as perfect. This implies that there are people there who actually do not want or deserve to be there.

But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

and directly before that...


8When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last ones hired and moving on to the first.’

9The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when the original workers came, they assumed they would receive more. But each of them also received a denarius.

11On receiving their pay, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’

13But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. 15Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

That is, when evening comes, God will not only pay everyone their reward but may in fact give people who seem not to want or deserve their reward.

While most of the interpreters of Revelations see this period as a withdrawal of grace, I completely disagree. God has made a covenant with both the Jews and the Christians. He has offered Jesus as a sacrifice, once for all, for our sins. To withdraw this, especially due to a trick, would be breaking his vow. We have choices in this life. Unlike our politicians, God keeps his promises.
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But when we cross-reference this passage, we find out...
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out…

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand…

...It is not possible to deceive the elect. Just as it is not possible to withdraw Christ's grace. God himself intended this, and to say otherwise is to testify against God and the Holy Spirit.

This is not the withdrawal of grace from the righteous. That is, God has not suddenly said, "I know I forgive your sins then, but you don't measure up. So I'm gonna punish you now." Rather it is a condemnation of the wickedness of the world itself.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

With all my heart, I long for Jesus. I long to belong, and to be loved. Revelation speaks about a Mark and people being cast out for not taking the Mark (not being able to buy and sell), and then later those with the Mark are cast out (of heaven). This is a simple reversal of fortune, not some scheme to punish people for... pardon the expression, the hell of it.
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

If there were anything, anything, that I could do to separate from God, this would be righteousness based on the Law. But there isn't, nothing you can do is unforgivable but blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (but neither will I intentionally do anything to distance myself from God, because I love God).

The deception of Revelation, then, is not that people are tricked into taking the Mark. It is believing that the Mark could possibly separate us from God in the first place!

The Mark is a symbol of disobedience to God. But it is a manmade object, and nothing can separate us from God...
31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.") 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

...We can only be convinced of a delusion that they can.

John's Revelation is talking about an end times where people are so convinced of their own evil that they have to be destroyed (I do not believe this destruction is punishment, nor permanent, but rather a way to resolve the condition of being trapped in sin). They are stuck, because they are blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. I mentioned blaspheming against the Holy Spirit twice, what do I mean?
Jesus says this is the only unpardonable sin. This is assuming that God or Jesus WON'T do something (like forgive sins). That we are too terrible a person. Or that someone else is. The reason God won't forgive this sin is because it's basically a trap of hubris that cannot be forgiven until it is resolved. We define God's nature or ability, effectively typecasting him.
This, this is why I object to John's Revelation. Because it is basically an affront to the teaching of grace. We have to accept it as an abstract depiction of end times, but understand that much of it is based on false perceptions.
I've read it until I literally went mad, and I can only conclude that it's a sort of incomplete picture of God's plan of grace. It only deals in the righteous, not how God will resolve the problems of the sinner. And this question must be resolved, as I do not deem myself worthy enough to be called righteous at end times. Would I also be tossed into a lake of fire? Or should I trust that nothing I can do will separate me from the love of God?

Either all of us will fail and fall short, or God has a plan even for those tossed into a lake of fire.
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Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2022 08:51 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Yes, Jesus will come again. Yes there is a period of the Mark of the Beast, where normal social activity is excluded. Yes, Jesus will stand outside the gates of his own church. Yes, there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth.

Actually, I believe Jesus already has come again, and is among us. The "last days" if you will, come in each generation to test us as Christians, before we are raised again. The "Mark of the Beast" occurs whenever the state takes over completely. It happened under Communism, it happened under Nazis, it is happening again (COVID masks and vaccines). However, the Revelation prophecy is actually a big hoax against Christians by Jews and Romans.
The HyperTexts John of Patmos: Errors, Contradictions and False Prophecies
Hint 1: Much of it is written more like Jewish literature. Case in point, the 30 minutes of silence? Something Jews would know about as it is when the incense is burned in the Temple. (Largely Gentile) Christians would know literally nothing of this, but any Jew would be able to explain it. Ditto for many of the strange prophetic images.
Hint 2: Jesus in Revelation (his name might as well be in scare quotes) is depicted as holding an iron rod, and called a "morning star." That's the name for Lucifer, the false light of the world. Also, the iron rod is a depiction of absolute power. Iron is forged by warlords in weapons of war and destruction. "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those in authority over them call themselves benefactors. But you shall not be like them. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who leads like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines? But I am among you as one who serves."
Hint 3: The intense brutality of this 'Jesus' against sinners. Yes, the secular world does some seriously bad stuff, as consequence of their decision to be ruled by kings and not by God. Yet God allowed them to do this. Yes, there may be a breaking point. But this action and its responsibility is to struggle against the "powers and principalities" not "flesh and blood." The state of Babylon will indeed fall, as the state of Israel fell in the Old Testament. Yes, Christians will be put to persecution, time and again. But Jesus said, "And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." Jesus did not condemn the sinner, he did not even condemn the Pharisee (though he gave them a hard time). In fact, this is why Jesus was betrayed by the crowd, because they expected him to be a liberator or freedom fighter, not someone to forgive others on the cross.
Hint 4: Christians are condemned for having the Mark. Yeah, it is seriously bad news to have a society based around the Mark of the Beast (I heard today of a man who was denied a heart transplant for being unvaccinated). But "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: 'For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." How then can a manmade device separate us? This is what really deceives the elect, that anything on this Earth can make us apart from God. But neither will I swear any loyalty to this false world and its stupid rules.
Hint 5: Likewise, Christians are condemned for unclean food, adultery, or worship of idols. No more than normal. Jesus said on two occasions that what enters a person could not corrupt, only what comes out of a person.
Hint 6.66: Galatians 1:8 - "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!" Yet John (if that is John, since I read 3 John and the writing style seems different) teaches that grace is not sufficient for salvation, but avoiding a Mark, avoiding sin, and being utterly perfect during this time. But all this works theology is not in line with the Gospel. "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

So here this "Jesus" comes along, and supposedly nukes all the non-Christians, then there are supposedly 1000 years of "peace", where "Satan" will be locked up, yet somehow there is no grace during this time. No sin of any kind will be allowed, and people will try to die but cannot. I'm probably mixing up passages, but you get the idea. We should trust what we know of Jesus, and trust that Jesus does allow evil in this world, because evil is part of God's plan. One day, suffering will fall away. Not free will. A careful reading of Genesis reveals that knowledge of Good and Evil was an intentional gift, not a sin. There is no possible way that God could have forbidden in by putting it (1) dead center in the garden of Eden, (2) not making the fruit out of reach, or (3) not having anyone or anything to guard it.

So, what do you think? Should any Christian even bother to read Revelation in light of this latest take on things?
The Anointed
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2022 09:53 pm
Good heaven you come up with some rubbish, don't you?

I'm probably mixing up passages, but you get the idea.

Not 'Probably' youngen, you are certainly mixing up passages and taking them out of all context in which they were written, but biblically ignorant and unstable people are known to falsify the Holy Scriptures.

We should trust what we know of Jesus,

So, what do we know about Jesus? And let me here repeat that which i have said to you before.

We know that Jesus, the earthly "IMAGE' of the MOST HIGH in the creation, who filled him with his spirit=WORDS on the day that he was baptised, said; "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for "MANY". Not all.

Jesus also said in Matthew 25: 31-; " “When the Son of Man comes as King and all the angels with him, he will sit on his royal throne, and the people of all the nations will be gathered before him. Then he will divide them into two groups, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the righteous people on his right and the others on his left. Then the King will say to the people on his right, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father! Come and possess the kingdom which has been prepared for you ever since the creation of the world. I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.’ .......... ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these members of my family, you did it for me!’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink; I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.’

John, who was spiritually carried to the 7th heaven or the great seventh day Sabbath, the day of the Lord which is to be ruled by Jesus.

Acts 17: 31; "For He (THE LORD) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a 'MAN' he has 'CHOSEN'. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that 'MAN' from death."

1 Corinthians 15: 25- 28; "For Christ must rule until God defeats all enemies and puts them under his feet. The last enemy to be defeated will be death. For the scripture says, “God put all things under his feet.” It is clear, of course, that the words “all things” do not include God himself, who puts all things under Christ. But when all things have been placed under Christ's rule, then he himself, the Son, will place himself under God, who placed all things under him; and God will rule completely over all.

It was John, who was carried in spirit to the ends of the seventh day, who witnessed the destruction of all physical lifeforms on this planet, and the fact the the seas had all evaporated, and the Son of Man reclaim his throne from Jesus, his chosen heir and successor.

Revelation 21: 1; Then I (John) saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth disappeared, and the sea vanished.

Revelation 21: 5-8; Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me (JOHN), “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it.

Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children. But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practise magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the 'SECOND DEATH'.”

These are the words of the Lord.

But you refuse to eat the entire spiritual body of the Lord, who said through the mouth of his obedient servant 'Jesus'; "The flesh is of no use at all, it is the Spirit that Gives life and 'MY WORDS' are spirit and life."
The Anointed
Reply Tue 25 Jan, 2022 11:06 pm
@The Anointed,
Continued from previous post.

Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has given divine glory to his Servant Jesus.

Jesus, who, according to the scriptures, was given divine glory by the God of Abraham, is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of our Father.

First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and savior, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

Revelation 2: 17; “To those who win the victory I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give each of them a white stone on which is written a new name that no one knows except the one who receives it.

Verses 26-28; To those who win the victory, who continue to the end to do what I want, I will give the same authority that I received from my Father: I will give them authority over the nations, to rule them with an iron rod and to break them to pieces like clay pots. I will also give them the morning star.

Should a King whose country is surrounded by the nations of the world, whose aim it is, to drive his chosen people into the sea, stand up and fight for his people or abandon them to those nations of whom Zechariah says in Chapter 14: The day when the LORD will sit in judgement is near. Then Jerusalem will be looted, and the loot will be divided up before your eyes. The city will be taken, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the people will go into exile, but the rest of them will not be taken away from the city.

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past and from within the inner most sanctuary of his tabernacle (The kingdom of God is within you) which temporary tabernacle is the body of mankind, he will fight the enemies of Israel; those Nations who surround Jerusalem in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea.

The African tectonic plate in its northern migration, grinds against the Arabian plate in a line that runs up through the Red Sea and along the Jordon valley beneath the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14: 3-4; Then the Lord will go out and fight for his people as he has fought in times past. At that time, he will stand on the Mount of Olives, to the east of Jerusalem. Then the Mount of Olives will be split in two, from east to west by a large valley. Half of the mountain (On the African plate) will move northward, and half of it (On the Arabian plate) will move southward.

Could the violent activity around the earth at this time, be the trigger that will cause the super volcano beneath Yellow stone to erupt, enveloping the planet in a cloud of debris? And that day shall be neither day nor night, but a perpetual twilight.

Zechariah 14: 13; Then the Lord will throw those nations that surround Jerusalem, into a state of total confusion, and the weapons of destruction with which they would destroy Israel, he will cause them to turn upon their own allies and they shall suffer a terrible disease, the soft tissue such as their eyes and tongues will melt in their sockets, and their radiated flesh, cooked to the bone, will slide from their bodies while still standing. Then all the surviving Nations will send their representatives each year to Jerusalem in the land of Israel, to worship and pay tribute to the Lord who will rule the whole world with justice for a thousand years, and woe betide those who refuse to do so.

Then all the godless people of this world, and all those, who in their Synagogues, Mosques, and Cathedrals of stone, marble, or crystal, who prostate themselves on the floors or who sing and dance with their eyes and hands raised to the heavens in worship of a god they neither know or understand, will bow down and worship THE God of the Bible, the Most High in the creation, ‘The Son of Man’ who evolves from the body of mankind.

It is in that thousand years of peace that all our resources will be used to prepare for the ultimate destruction of all physical life forms that remain on this planet. Knowing that which is to occur after the one thousand year Sabbath, when heavenly fire incinerates the surface of the earth, with the great wealth that will be paid in tribute by the nations of the world during that thousand year rule of our king and high priest, genetic banks of all physical life forms will be created, (The Ark) and sent to a place of safety in order that when the incinerated earth is once again able to sustain physical life forms, Plants will be planted, animals will be created anew, and when the system for the sustainability of mankind has been put in place, the Lord, our brother, king, and high priest will say, "And now, let us make man in our image and likeness." And a new and more, humble Race of men will people this earth.

"Under the guidance of Jupiter (Planet) man prepares, by means of religious exercises, for the journey to the life beyond, and he attains rest under the influence of Saturn." (Basra Encyclopedia)- De Boer, Philosophy in Islam, p 88.

The water ocean on Enceladus, a moon that orbits the planet Saturn, is about 6 miles (10 kilometers) deep and lies beneath a shell of ice 19 to 25 miles (30 to 40 km) thick, researchers said. Further, it's in direct contact with a rocky seafloor, theoretically making possible all kinds of complex chemical reactions — such as, perhaps, the kind that led to the rise of life on Earth.

"The world being melted and re-entered into the bosom of Jupiter, this God continues for some time totally concentered in himself: . . . afterwards we see a new world spring from him, perfect in all its parts; animals are produced anew; an innocent race of man is formed under more favourable auspices, in order to people this earth." " Seneca, Epist, 9, and Qucest. Nat. L. 3, c, ult.
0 Replies
Reply Wed 26 Jan, 2022 02:42 am
@The Anointed,
Are you aware that "John"'s Revelation so contradicted John's other books that Martin Luther decided to put it in the appendix of his German Translation instead of the main text? As for me, I found that most of the books I had allowed me to rip Revelation our without affecting surrounding text.

As for you, I am somewhat surprised that you, a hater of all things Roman do not immediately agree with a proposal to toss it into the garbage and burn it. For if anything teaches rabid works theology, this does. And it is behind many a holy roller who sees their political enemies as not simply misguided, but the embodiment of evil. The Bible without Revelation ends on a very kind note (Jude). With Revelation, we have an authoritarian "God" who basically mindwipes every living soul to demand fealty, then tosses them in a Good Place (watch the show), where they can't enjoy the ocean, can't moongaze, can't enjoy the majesty of a temple, and are secretly miserable but probably too messed up to know better.

This has all the hallmarks of demonic false prophecy. Jesus explicitly says that he wants to save the world, not judge it. So do I, even though I am a very very imperfect human. I damned sure don't want a "God" that slaughters scores of people for being sinners. I want a God who loves both the righteous and the unjust. Jesus speaks against false prophets. He speaks against people who say "I am he." But all of us are the Body of Christ . Someone outside the Body saying that cannot be Christ. We do not need to await Christ's "coming again in glory." This is a false teaching. We need to resist false prophets, both of the secular world and spiritual teachers (which plenty of NR text already warns about without including Rev, making it not only false but redundant). Jesus has alreadt returned, and we can see Him among our friends and loved ones. We have no need of this false teaching of the Second Coming. Jesus came back immediately after his death. Prophecy fulfilled. In the Book of God, they rightly end the story here, with the torn curtain. The empty tomb.

But Revelation make up a story that Jesus went into the sky, and will come again. Sure. Any time we want. Because God is with us. In the sky, in the ocean. Anywhere. Not far away. Here. You can confess your sins, not to a priest, but to the High Priest that is part of all believers. Just talk to other people. Yes, people can let you down, but a false self-proclaimed Messiah will mess with your head.
Reply Wed 26 Jan, 2022 08:15 am
I would be seriously bummed if THIS is the end of the story.

Where did you get this? Is it your church's belief or your own conclusion?
Reply Wed 26 Jan, 2022 07:03 pm
My own independent research.

After having studied multiple religions, I have a pretty different take on seemingly harmless or hopeful-sounding passages. Especially, I pay attention to when situations seem to be portraying a sort of false-light.

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

What can this be but other religions, which (given some work) are also intended to be saved? Yet the Revelation condemns all who do not worship this "Jesus" who brutally sentences people who don't follow him to death.

Revelation seems to have an odd almost Taoist duality to it, where the Whore of Babylon/the Bride of Christ, the Antichrist/Jesus seemed to perfectly mirror each other. But the more I read of it to try to understand it, the more and more uncomfortable and angry/fearful I got looking at current events. Even the ending which includes a "new Heaven and a new Earth" was more depressing than hopeful. No sex or children? No ocean? No temples? No sun or moon? One of the things my mom and I do is sit on the beach during the evening in summer and watch the sun set over the horizon. Moreover, in order to get to this point, a great number of "evil" people have to be slaughtered.

Finally, I read two texts in particular, the one above in the link and The Apocalypse Deception: The Book of Revelation is Not What It Claims to Be, and suddenly "Ah, I get it. This text is demon-possessed." I carefully rip the pages from three Bibles, toss it in the waste bin, and shove it under our kitchen trash.

One of the biggest issues with the text is the dire warning, that basically not only prevents reasonable edits, but pressures people not to leave the damned book out.
18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book

But this is what is called a red flag. It is a litmus test that the writings are false.

In the same way that we can know Papal Infallibility is false. It is a man-made edict claiming to be from God screaming, "Don't you take this book out of here. I'm warning you! God will remove your name from the book of life!" It also prevents reasonable accounts of encounters with God from being written about, so believers have the impression that miracles have ceased. In other words, it's a weapon against Christianity.
My advice is to treat it like an abuser's threats. Stand up to it, ignore it, and remember the many many Gospels and letters specifically preaching that grace is a thing that God grants. No man's warning can remove your name from the book that God has prepared to write. Tear it out.

There is a better end to the story. God will provide us a new life with Him. He will wipe away all of our tears. God will provide us a place to live, he will come to save and not judge the world. And he will be the bridegroom to all of us bridesmaids. The sky is not falling. Even though humans try their best.
The Anointed
Reply Wed 26 Jan, 2022 10:34 pm
The Bible without Revelation ends on a very kind note (Jude).

Matthew 25: 31-36; concerning the “FINALE JUDGEMENT” Jesus, speaking in the name of the Lord says, “When the Son of Man comes as King and all the angels with him, he will sit on his royal throne, and the people of all the nations will be gathered before him.

Then he will divide them into two groups, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the righteous people on his right and the others on his left. Then the King will say to the people on his right, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father! Come and possess the kingdom which has been prepared for you ever since the creation of the world. I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.’……… ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these members of my family, you did it for me!’

Verse 41; “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink; I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.’…….. ‘I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me.’ These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, (and the punishment that is eternal is the 'SECOND DEATH) but the righteous will go to eternal life.”

(JESUS, speaking in the name of the Lord said; “When the Son of Man comes as King and all the angels with him, he will sit on his royal throne, and the people of all the nations will be gathered before him.

The King is He who sits in the throne of the Most High in the creation.

Revelation 21: 5-8; Then the one who sits on the throne said, “And now I make all things new!” He also said to me, “Write this, because these words are true and can be trusted.” And he said, “It is done! I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. To anyone who is thirsty I will give the right to drink from the spring of the water of life without paying for it. Those who win the victory will receive this from me: I will be their God, and they will be my children.

But cowards, traitors, perverts, murderers, the immoral, those who practise magic, those who worship idols, and all liars — the place for them is the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the 'SECOND DEATH'

Did God say that death was the penalty for the unrepentant sinners, or that the punishment was eternal life in the fires of hell?

The words of 'JOHN' in Revelation, compliment the words of 'JESUS' in the Gospel of Matthew, which is nothing like the crap that you come out with. If it was up to you, you would burn the entire scriptures and re-write them according to the words of bulmabriefs144.

Who are they of the first resurrection who are to take the thrones that are prepared for them and rule with Jesus for the thousand years Sabbath?

Who were those saints whose Graves were opened immediately after the spirit of the Lord left his earthly host body hanging on the cross, crying out; “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?

Those righteous spirits who came out of their opened graves three days later and entered the holy city with Jesus and revealed themselves to be the risen body of the one who was anointed as the heir to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation?

Can you reveal who those of that first resurrection are?

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