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The STEM Paradox. Why women don't choose math or science.

 
 
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 07:01 am
The narrative: Women are kept out of STEM fields (i.e. engineering, math and science) by a patriarchal society that keeps women out of technical fields which tend to be influential and high paying.

The prediction: Based on this narrative, you would expect that as enlightened societies give more rights to women and dismantle oppressive gender norms, that the number of women will increase and approach a balanced number of men and women in technology.

The reality: The opposite is happening. Countries, such as Finland and Norway have increased rights for women and made a conscious effort to empower women to take a a greater role accross the society. The result is that as women are given greater choice fewer women are choosing STEM fields.

In the US as more and more women are going to college and more are earning advanced degrees. The low number of women in STEM fields is stagnant.

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View best answer, chosen by maxdancona
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 07:05 am
I want to make sure we separate the two issues here. The point is that these are not the same issue.

1) Everyone agrees that women should have the same opportunity as men to succeed in STEM fields. And issues of discrimination and inequality should be addressed.

2) The numbers of women in STEM fields can not be used as a measure of equality. As we increase equality (by any measure) the number of women in STEM decreases.

No one has figured out how to get more women to choose STEM fields while increasing gender equality (decreasing gender equality paradoxically increases the number of women in STEM).

An interesting question is whether increasing the number of women in STEM should even be a goal?


0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 07:09 am
Oops. I forgot to add the link to an Atlantic Article on this topic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/
0 Replies
 
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 07:33 am
@maxdancona,
Unemployed men who take traditionally female jobs make more money
Academic research shows that men get a 4% wage increase and significant boosts to the prestige of their job relative to their previous job before unemployment.


Unemployed men who take traditionally female jobs make more money

BY JILL YAVORSKY AND JANET DILL–THE CONVERSATION4 MINUTE READ

In the past few decades, many high-paying jobs that are mostly done by men–like manufacturing–have contracted or disappeared. At the same time, many jobs in fields dominated by women–like education and healthcare–have significantly increased.

In fact, female-dominated jobs have some of the highest projected job and wage growth in the economy.

We are sociologists interested in the following question: If jobs in female-dominated sectors represent the future, what will it take for men to take them?

WHO’S WORKING WHERE?

Women have made significant progress entering male-dominated jobs–like finance, law and medicine–over the past several decades.

However, men have made far less progress entering female-dominated jobs like those of teachers, nurses, or human resource representatives, among others.

Men have largely avoided female-dominated work for two key reasons. First, men may face social stigma by entering jobs that challenge masculine ideals, so they distance themselves from feminine activities.

Second, female-dominated jobs tend to pay less than male-dominated ones, even when skill levels and education requirements are equivalent.

However, not all female-dominated jobs pay poorly. Jobs like nursing can offer high wages, good benefits, and job stability. Yet even in this field, men remain a small minority at about 13%.

Prior research shows that few men aspire to work in female-dominated jobs, but we wondered what men who lose their jobs and become unemployed will do? Would they consider female-dominated work then?

It’s more than just an academic question because many men–particularly working-class men–may face unemployment at some point in their careers.

Our recent study shows that men who are unemployed are much more likely to switch to a female-dominated job. And when they do, some men experience job advantages.

WAGE AND PRESTIGE BUMPS

Men who enter female-dominated jobs experience, on average, a 4% wage increase and significant boosts to the prestige of their job relative to their previous job before unemployment.

In contrast, men who entered male-dominated jobs or jobs that had an equal balance of men and women either maintained or lost ground in wages and occupational prestige. Examples of mixed-gender jobs include claims adjusters, property managers, and retail salespersons.

Our study suggests that female-dominated jobs may help mitigate common scarring effects of lost wages or prestige in a man’s subsequent job after being unemployed.

If female-dominated jobs tend to pay less than comparable male-dominated jobs, what explains these job advantages? We suspect that some men may be willing to take a female-dominated job only if it offers higher wages or more occupational prestige. Thus, they may specifically target upgraded jobs in these cases.

Employers may also more highly value men’s previous occupational backgrounds in male-dominated or mixed-gender fields, allowing them access to higher-level jobs than in other sectors.

Notably, there may be future benefits of entering female-dominated jobs, like stepping onto a “glass escalator.” Research on men in nontraditional fields have found that straight, white men are often fast-tracked to management positions, akin to riding an invisible–but very real–escalator up to the top.

These processes, of course, starkly contrast the glass ceiling that many women face in which they experience barriers in rising to leadership and contribute to gender inequality within female-dominated domains.

However, these advantages accrue in female-dominated jobs only if men stay in them, and compelling research by sociologist Margarita Torre casts doubts that men will stay in these jobs for a long time.

Torre’s work shows that many men use female-dominated jobs as a stopgap position before moving back into a male-dominated or mixed-gender job.

MEN IN FEMALE-DOMINATED JOBS

Having men doing “women’s work” may not just affect their careers. It could impact society as well.

Jobs associated with women are economically devalued in the American economy, particularly when they involve care work, such as teaching, childcare, and healthcare.

Although we contend that female-dominated jobs merit better wages regardless of men’s entrance, men’s participation in these jobs may enhance the job’s status and economic value. Indeed, research has shown that wages tend to increase after men enter jobs dominated by women, potentially because employers may more highly value the work that men do or more readily accept men’s negotiations for higher wages.

Men’s entrance into female-dominated jobs could also help reduce potential labor market shortages, like those expected in healthcare. Depending on the job, such a position may provide men with greater job stability and employment opportunities, given the high projected job growth of many female-dominated jobs.

Moreover, men’s entrance into female-dominated jobs may push along what we, and many other scholars, see as a needed shift in how the culture values work traditionally done by women. If female-dominated jobs were as highly valued as comparable male-dominated jobs, the incomes of women in these positions–and thus women’s broader economic status–would increase.

Our research shows that economic conditions are strongly associated with men’s entrance into female-dominated work. The challenge is getting past the point that men in the workforce need an economic shock like unemployment to consider female-dominated jobs.

Raising wages in female-dominated jobs and removing stigmas associated with men doing them would go a long way in advancing men’s integration into these jobs and reducing gender inequality in the workforce.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90450227/unemployed-men-who-take-traditionally-female-jobs-make-more-money
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 08:13 am
@neptuneblue,
That is interesting Neptune. I believe that in some male-dominated fields, such as construction, women make more than men.

My point on this thread is why women don't choose to go into STEM fields. Engineers get paid a lot. The industry is putting a lot of effort into recruiting more women (my company moves any female application for an engineering job to the top of the pile.... there aren't very many is the problem).

And the interesting thing is that in progressive countries with a culture of gender equality.... fewer women choose STEM fields.
neptuneblue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 01:34 pm
@maxdancona,
Gender equality also would entice males into non-traditional roles in nursing, child care and domestic service.

How many males work in a Pre School where an advanced degree is required?

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 01:40 pm
@neptuneblue,
Yes, Neptune.

More women then men choose to be nurses, and more men than women choose to be engineers. You don't seem to be contesting this. You seem to think this is a bad thing, but you haven't offered a way to reverse this trend.

More women than men earn advanced degrees. I don't know if these women are choosing to teach pre-school (I hope not). They just aren't choosing to study math, science or engineering.

Why don't an equal number of women as men choose to go into math or science, even in cultures that promote woman's rights and equality? The fact is surprising. As you increase gender equality in a society, the number of women in STEM fields decreases.
neptuneblue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 01:46 pm
@maxdancona,
I'm asking you why men are not going into Care field. They're just not choosing nursing, education or hospitality degrees.

Where's your moral outrage??

We need MORE threads from Max to be able to tell us what and why people are choosing their education without Max's approval.

Please continue. The forum awaits.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 01:48 pm
@neptuneblue,
Are you trying to pick a fight, Neptune?

I am not expressing any moral outrage in this thread. What do I even have to be outraged about?
neptuneblue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 01:51 pm
@maxdancona,
I asked a straight forward question.

Gender equality includes men too. Unless you disagree with the premise the men are people too.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 28 Sep, 2021 01:55 pm
@neptuneblue,
Neptune. We agree that gender equality includes men too.

The question is this; Does gender equality mean equal numbers of men and women choosing to go into engineering (or nursing)?

If more women choose to be nurses and more men choose to be engineers, is this a problem?

If this is a problem what should we do about it. Increasing woman's rights makes this inbalance of careeer choices worse.

0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2021 01:17 pm
The odd thing here to me is you speak about women being nurses and not interested in science and math. Isn't nursing a science? You need to know biology, chemistry, etc. to be a nurse. Not sure why nursing is not considered a stem degree.

I know you provide stats on women going into certain fields - but to be honest my personal experience is that there are more girls (meaning in high school and college) that actually do go into math and science - that seem to get better grades in math and science than the boys and then go on to study things like math, biology, chemistry and other sciences in college. Maybe it is simply the area of the country in which I live. But I know more girls (now young women) going into the sciences - and yes many are going into nursing (which I personally consider a science) - do you realize how difficult a nursing degree is? It is pretty tough.

The other area I see alot of these women going into is education - those seem to be the larger areas having daughters that are of college age (and recent graduates going onto graduate school).

Just wondering why it is not considered STEM to be a nurse ? Is it a STEM area of study if you go onto being a doctor? Or anyone else in the medical field? Because there is sure a very good amount of science involved in those studies.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2021 01:39 pm
@Linkat,
My point is that there is a set of mathematically intense, highly paid professions that are 90-95% male. As we increase gender equality, the number of women who want to enter these fields decreases. Software engineering is an example of a field that is 90% men. (This is not true for either medicine or nursing)

There are two questions here

- Why aren't women choosing to enter these fields?
- Should we care? Can we just accept that for whatever reason, very few women will ever choose to be software engineers.

What you are doing is a form of gerrymandering. Instead of asking why there aren't more women in software engineering, or mathematics, or Physics careers... you are just redefining the term to include more women.


maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2021 02:05 pm
I want to talk about the anti-social creepy guy in the basement phenomenon.

The history of software engineering depends on men who had an idea and no-social life. They went into hiding and came out with an important piece of software based on a cool idea they had.

You probably wouldn't have much respect for these men. They are social immature and tend to like porn and don't know how to talk to women. These are the men you might joke about "living in the cellar". And yet these men have built the internet you are using now

In some ways this is the very definition of equality. Anyone with a $400 computer has what it takes to develop a world-changing innovation, you don't need a job or anyone's belief in you or approval or even a social life. It has happened countless times that some unknown built technology that you depend on without knowing it. You probably know the story of Napster (just some guy in the basement). You may have heard of Linux (lots of guys in basements). JQuery is a library that changed the world. PHP is the software I think able2know is based on.

These important innovations weren't developed by upstanding citizens working professionally while obeying social norms and respecting women. They were just guys with an idea and no social life pounding out code.

In case you were wondering.... even though anyone can be a creep in the basement, I can't think of any example of a woman doing this.

I don't think you can stop creepy men from coming up with cool ideas on their own, nor do I think we should. These men have been given insider credit for contributing to the Internet, although I bet even if you used Napster in its heyday you can't tell me the name of the guy who invented it.

Where are the creepy women in basements? There seems to be something inherently male about this rather important part of the development of the internet.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2021 02:23 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


What you are doing is a form of gerrymandering. Instead of asking why there aren't more women in software engineering, or mathematics, or Physics careers... you are just redefining the term to include more women.



No, what I was doing was questioning why STEM (or at least how you were defining it) does not include nursing or many medical fields when the subject matter is highly scientific.

What you are doing is now changing the thought process by changing your premise from why more women are not working and/or studying STEM fields to why more women are not in more math fields. I am not redefining the STEM field - at all - if anything I am questioning what is included in it and why? Your question was The STEM Paradox. Why women don't choose math or science. Your question was not why don't women choose software engineering or physics?

I think what you should be getting is more very particular careers not STEM as a whole as women have made great strides in some STEM careers.

For example doctors was a male dominated career - with less than 10% women prior to the 70s. But now women out number men in this field.

hightor
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2021 02:28 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
- Why aren't women choosing to enter these fields?

I think there might only be a certain percentage of women interested in STEM careers. And yes, they should have the right to choose that field and the expectation that they will be able to succeed on their own merits. Increased gender equality will make it easier for women in this group to enter the field of their choice. But simply increasing the opportunity won't magically equip a greater percentage of women with the particular skills (or the ambition) needed to thrive in this field. Many men – who aren't held back by gender bias – choose to work in other professions. As a boy, I expected to become a "scientist" – it was always my best subject. But as I grew older I realized that life in a research lab or academic setting wasn't for me, even though the opportunity was there.

Quote:
- Should we care? Can we just accept that for whatever reason, very few women will ever choose to be software engineers.

No, we shouldn't care to the extent that we feel a need to achieve a certain proportion of women to men in the field. We should notice the paradox, however, just out of natural curiosity and concern. Possibly it will change with time, or perhaps we'll find more women in STEM careers in other cultures, or maybe we'll identify specific genetic traits connected with successful women in STEM fields. But the main thing is not making women feel that the door is closed. That's an achievement in itself.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2021 02:31 pm
@Linkat,
I think we are talking about two different things. And maybe you and I agree.

Men and women are segregated into different fields. More men then women want to be engineers. More women than men want to be nurses. Maybe it was a mistake for me to use the term "STEM"; the term is a distraction. The point is about gender segregation.

You are correct that the medical field (i.e. doctors) has become more balanced in gender (I think it is about 95% female). This has certainly not happened for software engineers.

If everyone is willing to say... "It is OK that more men than women become engineers, and it is OK that more women become nurses". Maybe there is no problem that 95% of software engineers are men.

maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2021 02:33 pm
@hightor,
Good answer Hightor. We agree.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2021 06:23 pm
@maxdancona,
I just noticed my typo.

The medical field (i.e. doctors) is about 35% female (I mistyped 95%). The software engineering field is about 5% female.

Women earn 75% of the advanced degrees in humanities. 92% of nurses are women. 82% of social workers are women and 77% of teachers are women.
PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2021 06:03 am
@maxdancona,
Jorden Peterson answers this question - but I have a feeling you already know that.
 

 
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