The Derek Chauvin Trial

We have huge inequality over here. Black people are nine times more likely to be stopped and searched, three times more likely to be arrested and twice as likely to die in police custody.

Deaths in custody are bad, and some of the cc footage of people dying are similar to that of George Floyd.

There is one big difference, these deaths happened behind closed doors, there was cc tv, but by and large the police were on their own.

With George Floyd it happened publicly, not only was Floyd pleading for his life, but so were others. One would have thought that it would have given even the most hardened racist pause for thought, but no, the culture of impunity meant he didn’t even try to look like he wasn’t carrying out an extra judicial killing.

That’s the most shocking aspect, this behaviour was blatant, out in the open, they didn’t even try to hide it.

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@izzythepush,

That’s what I think sparked the unprecedented, international response to this police killing - the combination of Chauvin’s casual, cruel actions and that it was all clearly captured on multiple videos.

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It seems to me the defense attempted to do some things that utterly failed, during yesterday’s proceedings.

They tried to create the impression of a dangerous and disruptive crowd whose actions affected the ability of the four police on site to effectively carry out their duties. They tried to make witnesses appear “angry”, or disruptive, or even threatening to the police.

They failed. The witnesses presented a calm and consistent recalling of the events that showed the 12 people watching the murder to be justifiably upset by what they saw. There were several videos and 911 calls that verified that the only ones behaving criminally were the police.

The defense tried to smear the integrity of any of the witnesses that had any degree of expertise on aspects of the event. They tried to create the impression that the 911 dispatcher may have acted out of being confused and stressed by too much radio traffic. They tried to make the MMA fighter look like an angry black man trying to start a fight. They tried to make the EMT/fire person look like she was out of place and interfering.

They failed. All three of those witnesses presented believable, credible testimony that painted a consistent story of Chauvin committing murder, and the other officers doing nothing to stop him.

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@snood,

It’s a good thing. Just because discrimination and prejudice may not be as extreme in other liberal democracies doesn’t mean it’s not a pernicious influence.

Until white people and black people are as likely to be stopped, and arrested as each other the problem won’t go away.

Also when the racial makeup of prisons accurately reflects the makeup of the general population. And we’ve a long way to go before we get there.

Prison population is another factor used by racists. I have argued with another poster that it is a result of over aggressive discriminatory policing whilst he insists it’s down to greater criminality.

Some of this prejudice is hard wired, they actually believe this ****.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Some of this prejudice is hard wired, they actually believe this ****.

Yup. It makes me shake my head in wonderment, sometimes.

But we have to acknowledge and remember how racism and race prejudice are perpetuated and reinforced... institutionally. It is taught overtly and unconsciously passed along by parents. It has proponents who make their living as attorneys and academics and educators and politicians. It lives and is passed on by tradition.
It’s deep in the roots of this country. That’s why it must be actively resisted into extinction and not passively tolerated as a hindrance to progress.

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@snood,

Not just there, Brexit was a result of some insane superiority complex going back to the days of empire.

The notion that we were somehow being held back by the EU was told in a steady drip drip by the tabloid press since 1974. The main opposition to the EU was from those who were children during WW2, not those who actually fought in it.

When that generation was at school there still was an empire and they’d been told the sun never set on it. For them modernity hasn’t been people ruling themselves, renewed independence and a recognition of human rights, it’s been one of decline.

And now we’ve got Brexit they’re going to see what decline really looks like.

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Can someone tell me what the heck is the significance to George Floyd appearing intoxicated in the Cup Food store? What difference does it make, no matter if he was a high as a kite, does that justify Chauvin's killing him?

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@revelette3,

Anything prior to Floyd being put on the ground and under control isn't relevant. Anything after that is punishment - which isn't a police function.

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@roger,

roger wrote:

Anything prior to Floyd being put on the ground and under control isn't relevant. Anything after that is punishment - which isn't a police function.

This is what the prosecution wants to argue. But it isn't legally true. And the defense argument is that what happened before is all important. (Remember that the only thing that matters is what the Jury believes.) The prosecution is continually trying to narrow the scope of the argument, and the defense keeps on trying to expand it.

It is interesting that it was the prosecution that chose to play the convenience store video. I am guessing the prosecution is worried about this video (it isn't good for their case) and wanted to preempt the defense.

I believe the defense is going to have video and testimony that George Floyd was fighting the police before he was subdued. If you don't think this is important... ask yourself if it video showing the opposite (a cooperative suspect peacefully complying) would be important. The defense will paint a picture of police under stress facing a difficult situation.

This thread has a ideological bias that is likely not shared by the intentionally unbiased jury.

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At the beginning of that ten minutes or so of time captured on video for all the world, we see that George Floyd was already handcuffed in the backseat of a police vehicle.

Let’s contemplate that for a second. For all the talk of him marauding about in Cup foods appearing high; for all the talk of him ingesting drugs at the time of arrest; for all the arguments about what is, and is not correct police procedure to handle an uncooperative arrestee...

They had already cuffed him and put him in the backseat of the vehicle.

One of the things the prosecution will doubtless point out in the days to come, and among the many things that the defense will have to provide a plausible excuse for, is that the police then drag the cuffed man out, push him to the concrete, and start doing... god knows what.

To our ignorant eyes, it sure appears that all four cops - especially Chauvin - are simply inflicting corporal punishment on Floyd. They appear to have no purpose but to cause him distress and physical pain.

The defense has an exceptionally weak case, IMHO. They have to make a credible argument that it was necessary to take a man already handcuffed and safely in the rear of their vehicle, out of the vehicle and grind him onto the pavement.

I say they won’t succeed in convincing 99.9999999999901 percent of people who hear their arguments.

What I’m afraid of is that one juror who in their heart would defend anything- anything - a policeman does, to whom any and all evidence is moot.

That’s whose hands the outcome of the trial will ultimately be in.

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@snood,

Exactly, if Floyd was causing trouble once he was cuffed and in the back of the vehicle that should be the end of it.

What followed after that was gratuitous.

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This is not the slam dunk case that the political left wants. The defense has a case, and there are several factors that could lead to the 12 people on the jury to return a not guilty verdict.

The arguments from the left here are already factually incorrect. He was not "handcuffed in the back of the police car". We don't know why they removed him from the car or what proper procedure is. But he was not handcuffed when they "pulled him from the back of the car".

I am just saying this to show that ideological bias can cause people to believe even basic things that are factually incorrect. And, the defense gets to tell its side of the story.

I believe this is a fair trial. And, I don't know what the verdict from the 12 people on the jury will be. My fear is that the left, by declaring that there is no way they can lose will create a violent uproar if the jury returns a verdict they don't like.

These declarations of absolute certainty of victory remind me of the last election where people were told "We can't lose unless they cheat..." This lead to violence... as we already know.

I wish the political left would start being responsible now. The message that "we can't possibly be wrong" is dangerous.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Exactly, if Floyd was causing trouble once he was cuffed and in the back of the vehicle that should be the end of it.

What followed after that was gratuitous.

We’ll never know what may have been said, because the only ones that would have heard it would be the police involved - but I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Floyd said something while in the back seat that they considered rude.

And they had to “teach him a lesson”.

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@snood,

snood wrote:

At the beginning of that ten minutes or so of time captured on video for all the world, we see that George Floyd was already handcuffed in the backseat of a police vehicle.

Let’s contemplate that for a second. For all the talk of him marauding about in Cup foods appearing high; for all the talk of him ingesting drugs at the time of arrest; for all the arguments about what is, and is not correct police procedure to handle an uncooperative arrestee...

They had already cuffed him and put him in the backseat of the vehicle.

One of the things the prosecution will doubtless point out in the days to come, and among the many things that the defense will have to provide a plausible excuse for, is that the police then drag the cuffed man out, push him to the concrete, and start doing... god knows what.

To our ignorant eyes, it sure appears that all four cops - especially Chauvin - are simply inflicting corporal punishment on Floyd. They appear to have no purpose but to cause him distress and physical pain.

The defense has an exceptionally weak case, IMHO. They have to make a credible argument that it was necessary to take a man already handcuffed and safely in the rear of their vehicle, out of the vehicle and grind him onto the pavement.

I say they won’t succeed in convincing 99.9999999999901 percent of people who hear their arguments.

What I’m afraid of is that one juror who in their heart would defend anything- anything - a policeman does, to whom any and all evidence is moot.

That’s whose hands the outcome of the trial will ultimately be in.

Agreed

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@snood,

Who gives a **** what was said. That’s not important. He was arrested, cuffed and ready to go down the nick. That’s where he should have been going.

I can’t think of anything that he could have said that would warrant taking him out of the vehicle.

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@maxdancona,

You are not a lawyer, and as usual when you talk about anything other than Physics you talk out of your arse.

You have a lovely little thread of your own and you seem to have made a chum with the scampish longjon, so it’s not like you don’t have somewhere to entertain your paranoid theories about groupthink and ideological bubbles and wotnot, and if anybody gives a **** they can comment there.

This is for people who want to discuss the trial, and that’s something you can’t or won’t do.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Who gives a **** what was said. That’s not important. He was arrested, cuffed and ready to go down the nick. That’s where he should have been going.

I can’t think of anything that he could have said that would warrant taking him out of the vehicle.

No, nothing would “warrant” it. You think I’m trying to justify it? No one deserves the treatment Floyd got. And I wasn’t trying to suggest anything else.

I was just speculating about what happened.

You’re not any more outraged or pissed off or offended by the cops than I am.

Jesus Izzy give me a break with the “my righteous indignation is more righteous and indignant than yours” bullshit.

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@izzythepush,

It seems a little silly to have different threads on a topic based on ideological bubble, but I guess that is where we are. This thread reads like a bunch of Manchester United fans, but OK. I suppose people want it that way.

I won't post here any more.

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@snood,

I’m not doing what you think I’m doing. Sorry if that’s how it came across.

I wasn’t accusing you of justifying it or anything like that.

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Quote:

Prosecutors are showing chilling footage from the body camera worn by Officer Thomas Lane as he, Derek Chauvin and other Minneapolis Police officers confronted and tried to arrest George Floyd outside the Cup Foods in Minneapolis on May 25.

The footage was made available for limited viewing in July but will be new to most of the people watching the trial, including jurors.

It shows Mr. Floyd, sitting in the driver’s seat of a car, becoming visibly distraught as soon as officers approach him with weapons draw and repeatedly begging the officers not to shoot him. He sobs and screams in terror throughout much of the video, and at no point does he appear to pose any threat to the officers.

At the beginning of the video, while Mr. Floyd is in the driver’s seat, one officer curses at him while ordering him to keep his hands in sight — showing the immediate aggressiveness with which the police confronted him. As they order him to get out of the car, he appears to be scared that they will kill him if he moves; it is at this point that he starts saying, “Don’t shoot me.”

As the officers try to push Mr. Floyd into the back seat of a police vehicle, the footage shows him screaming and saying repeatedly that he is claustrophobic and scared.

Later, as Mr. Floyd begs for his life under Mr. Chauvin’s knee and says he can’t breathe, the former officer says, “Takes a heck of a lot of oxygen to say that.” The video also shows Mr. Chauvin reacting nonchalantly when another officer says he can’t find Mr. Floyd’s pulse.

The video was introduced during testimony by Lt. Jeff Rugel, a body camera expert. Lieutenant Rugel explained how the Minneapolis Police Department’s body cameras worked and verified the legitimacy of the footage from Officer Lane’s camera.

nyt

I know the defense is going to come back and show lots of negative things, but honestly. no matter what they say or show, I don't see how those last minutes of George Floyd's life was in any way a "justified?" killing.

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The Derek Chauvin Trial

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