7
   

The problem with down votes compacting comments!

 
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2021 03:50 pm
Well... I have upset them again. Sigh.

If I met their stereotypical image of standard conservative I would be ok. They could put me into a little box and they wouldn't even waste much time responding.

What upsets them is that I am don't meet their simple caricature of conservative villain. In their world you have virtuous liberals fighting racist conservatives. Those of who don't fit in one of these two boxes mess up their fairy tail.

The fact is that I agree with the liberal side on almost all policy decisions. And I question some of the liberal rhetoric that to me seems extreme.

- I support police reforms to counter systemic racism that particular impacts African American communities.
- I worry that the Black Lives Matter movement has gone too far in some areas, particularly in excusing violence and defaming the police as a whole.

I can do both, and it makes them particularly upset. They are demanding purity, it is a "us or them" "all or nothing" stance. If you question any point of doctrine, you are one of "the others" and responsible for everything on the other side.

I can agree with Engineer or Izzy on some things and disagree with them on others. This should be a common occurrence. With the current political extremes any disagreement is treated like treason. Izzy and Engineer agree with me at least 95% of the time. That really should be enough.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 08:18 pm
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:
Yet, we have oralloy and his klan

Most racism comes from progressives, not from conservatives.


tsarstepan wrote:
still dropping posts about how the election was rigged

I've never said that the election was rigged.

I've said that it is quite possible that it was rigged, but saying "there is no way to know" is not saying that it was.


tsarstepan wrote:
and still posting QAnon conspiracy theory posts

I've never posted a QAnon conspiracy theory.


tsarstepan wrote:
that should be taken down immediately (which they are on Facebook and Twitter).

I strongly disagree that such posts should be taken down.

If any posts are to be censored, we should start by eliminating progressive posts.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 08:20 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Biden's a pedophile, Obama was born in Kenya -- these are intentional falsehoods and I don't think they have a place here.

Why should Mr. Biden's creepy sniffing of girls be whitewashed? Especially after all the venom that was directed at Mr. Trump?

The Kenya stuff was pretty silly, but I can't see the harm of people posting it.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 08:21 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I don't see anyone calling for public shaming here.

There are progressives who openly urge everyone to put me on ignore because they dislike me posting facts.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 08:22 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
If something is provably wrong it should be removed.

That would be 99% of all progressive posts.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 08:23 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
To claim that Trump won and Biden is an illegitimate president is simply not the case.

I don't think we can actually know whether Mr. Trump won or not. That no evidence of cheating can be produced might just mean that the Democrats successfully eliminated all the witnesses.

But cheating or not, it is definitely the case that Mr. Biden is an illegitimate president.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 09:28 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
maxdancona wrote:
After the 2016 election people claimed that Trump was an illegitimate president.

Not on A2K as far as I remember. Or put it this way -- people here may have said he was unfit to hold the office but not that he wasn't elected fairly. I recall a lot of discussion about the 80,000 votes which gave him the electoral victory. And since Clinton conceded it wasn't really much of an issue, just people trying to deal with their surprise and disappointment.

What about all the progressive nonsense about collusion with Russia?
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 09:37 pm
@oralloy,
The left overplayed their hand with collusion.... but that doesn't mean that there wasn't something there. I suspect it was mostly incompetence on the part of the Trump campaign, they simply didn't know enough to avoid meetings with Russian agents.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 10:53 pm
@maxdancona,
Or maybe they dutifully reported the contacts with the Russians to the CIA, and Barack Obama then concealed that information in order to launch a witch hunt against Mr. Trump.

More to the point though, the left rejected Mr. Trump's legitimacy without justification, and now it is OK for the right to reject the legitimacy of any leftist president.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 11:06 pm
@oralloy,
I think you are being silly on the first point.

I think you have a point when you say that the left rejected Mr. Trumps legitimacy (although I think you are overstating it).

I think you are being ridiculous on the third point. The right couldn't even admit that Obama was American.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2021 11:20 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I think you are being silly on the first point.

Facts are facts.


maxdancona wrote:
I think you are being ridiculous on the third point. The right couldn't even admit that Obama was American.

I am not aware of there being a third point in my post. However, you seem to be referring to the birth certificate nonsense, which is an issue that I am aware of.

It's not true that the right could not admit that Mr. Obama is an American. The birth certificate nonsense was constrained to the extreme right. Most rightwingers were only vaguely aware of the issue.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2021 05:54 pm
@tsarstepan,
I don't agree at all with the notion that A2K now has more problematic and offensive users than previously.

Apologies if this is going to sound too much like a rant, but how quickly you all forget the legions of posters you used to hate who — presumably after they ran into one suspension too many, or maybe because they just got bored — have gone silent for good. Just from the top of my head, and just on the conservative side, are there any recent posts by Dr Sliptinshit, Layman, Gungasnake, Coldjoint, FEL, Nonono, Frugal, Giujohn etc? I've seen a couple of recent posts complaining about Lash, when she hasn't posted in a year!

The current number always feels viscerally like the worst, but I think you'd have a hard time finding extended periods in the past where there were fewer than now. But as passionately as some people argue that if only certain users were banned, civilized discourse could return, once those very users do disappear for one reason or another, not a whole lot really changes — and the complaint just shifts to the next problem child.

Maybe that's just the nature of discussion forums, exacerbated by the particular ferocity of US politics this past year, but it's hard not to get jaded — not just by the ever new users who will come in and say unwelcome things, regardless of how much whack-a-mole volunteer mods do — but also by the ahistoricity of the Eternal September narratives.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2021 06:38 pm
@nimh,
Ah, but their stuff was diluted by so many other posters.
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2021 11:51 am
@roger,
Last night, after I'd seen this post, I checked the last five pages of the Monitoring Biden thread, just to get a random sample to second-guess my own impression.

That's 200 posts.

Literally the only two people among the posters writing those 200 posts who fell outside what, for lack of better terminology, I'll call a moderate/liberal/progressive consensus were Oralloy and Builder.
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2021 11:54 am
@nimh,
And people *were* making the exact same complaints when Layman was running wild, or when we had Frugal, Giujohn and Gungasnake posting in parallel...
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2021 12:04 pm
@nimh,
Progressives don't deserve to be called liberals.

And they certainly aren't moderates.

I'm a moderate.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2021 12:49 pm
@nimh,
That's 100 posts, sorry, my bad, not 200.

Point stands, though: two users you can't stand, who would take two clicks to put on ignore, doesn't immediately seem like evidence that the site is being overran by these folks. Like, if you can't stand one Oralloy, who to my mind obviously has issues that go beyond politics, on your forum - even when there's an ignore button - you're just validating the BS attacks the right conjures up about "the intolerant left".

But, hey, maybe I'm missing major things, which is very well possible, and people can point to the threads where there's a bunch of users who keep spinning conspiracy theories. Or just report them, you know. I doubt a public forum could reasonably suspend every new user who expresses the belief that "Trump won," or that it would even be right to do so - and that's most certainly not something Twitter or Facebook do either! - but if someone keeps "soapboxing" about the same conspiracy theories, there's a rule against that.

The mass downvoting thing, on the other hand, is obviously harmful. I understand that the site only costs money, so it might just not be feasible to keep investing the resources time and again every time someone sets up a sock puppet scheme or whatever, but they've done it in the past when things got out of hand. And from what I remember noticing here the last time obvious mass downvotes disappeared again, a prolific user disappeared for a very long time... which should kind of serve as warning for anyone doing this stuff now if they would like to stay here!
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2021 04:56 pm
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
Like, if you can't stand one Oralloy, who to my mind obviously has issues that go beyond politics, on your forum - even when there's an ignore button - you're just validating the BS attacks the right conjures up about "the intolerant left".

The left's actions validate the accusations against them because the accusations are not BS.


nimh wrote:
Oralloy, who to my mind obviously has issues that go beyond politics,

Honor and integrity are issues?


nimh wrote:
I doubt a public forum could reasonably suspend every new user who expresses the belief that "Trump won," or that it would even be right to do so - and that's most certainly not something Twitter or Facebook do either! - but if someone keeps "soapboxing" about the same conspiracy theories, there's a rule against that.

I still don't get the difference between "soapboxing" and "passionately supporting a cause you believe in".

As far as I can tell, everyone who posts in a political thread meets the definition of soapboxing.

There's probably no point in trying to explain it to me. Other have tried to explain it, and it's just not a distinction that I can process, or something.


nimh wrote:
it might just not be feasible to keep investing the resources time and again every time someone sets up a sock puppet scheme or whatever, but they've done it in the past when things got out of hand. And from what I remember noticing here the last time obvious mass downvotes disappeared again, a prolific user disappeared for a very long time... which should kind of serve as warning for anyone doing this stuff now if they would like to stay here!

That's an interesting comment. My thanks to the moderators for their efforts in eliminating the votedown abuse when it was directed against conservatives.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2021 07:16 pm
@roger,
Just another random check to second guess myself, because I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I may well have missed a lot!

But right now, I looked at the Politics forum: 25 topics on the first page.

Who are shown as the last posters to post in each of those threads?

Regular posters from within the range spanning from lefty-progressive to moderate conservative that I assume the people complaining here won't have an issue with:

5x Hightor
3x Izzythepush
3x Revelette3
2x BillW
Snood
Frank Apisa
Infrablue
Vikorr
Roger

That's 18/25.

Then we have 2 names which I don't recognize, but seem either politically anti-Trump or neutral/innocuous:

Coluber2001
Super-Socrates

And 2 users who steer their own course but still don't fit the bill of what this thread complained about:

Maxdancona
Leadfoot

Makes 22/25.

So finally we have Zardoz, who has been keeping his soapboxing safely confined to the one single thread for an impressive 10 years now, and 2 remaining posters:

Bulmabriefs144
Oralloy

2 out of 25. That seems... plenty diluted?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2021 07:44 pm
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
Then we have 2 names which I don't recognize

One of them has been here longer than I have.
 

 
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