The problem with down votes compacting comments!

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

I don't see it as worse than other communities. Thumb abuse is something that was well documented years ago across many sites. There are plenty of fake accounts on FB pushing conspiracies and the schemes are a lot more advanced.

Major difference? Posters of disproven conspiracy theories on those platforms when properly reported? The posts are permanently deleted and the bad faith actors are banned.

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You can post your theories to everyone and then everyone can comment.

Kind of like arguing with arsonists and their actions of burning down buildings instead of putting out the fire and dealing with the arsonists actual consequences rather than witty or factual retorts.

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Sure the nut cases post, then others post rebuttals. If you are new here, you see both sides. If you believe the answer to "bad" free speech is "good" free speech, then A2K is doing pretty well, much better than FB where counter speech is missing depending on the forum you are in.

Do not you not understand SEO and the legitimization of conspiracy theories by keeping them up for search engine trawls? That by the very nature of keeping this garbage ready and accessible online that literally is mainstreaming conspiracy theories?

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@tsarstepan,

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Yet, we have oralloy and his klan still dropping posts about how the election was rigged and still posting QAnon conspiracy theory posts that should be taken down immediately (which they are on Facebook and Twitter).

Why should these posts be taken down? The TOS doesn't forbid unpopular views.

Able2Know is one of the few places that you can see unfiltered content from outside your political bubble.

1 Reply

@tsarstepan,

tsarstepan wrote:

Major difference? Posters of disproven conspiracy theories on those platforms when properly reported? The posts are permanently deleted and the bad faith actors are banned.

Nah, a few, high profile actors are banned. Many, many more just continue on. Posts are not deleted, posters are not banned. FB is all about announcing their big purges, but to get a big purge, you have to have let the problem go forever which is what FB has done. FB et al are not the good actors you say they are, they are just better at PR and damage control. No one on A2K was encouraging people to storm the Capital on 1/6. Lies about vaccines are aggressively rebutted here. I'd say your typical conspiracy nut gets rough treatment here. I get the anger but directing it at A2K management seems misplaced to me. In the Internet ecosystem, we are in a small town complaining about our characters and kooks while in the big cities, there is murder and mayhem going on. Heck, I'd put our Coronavirus thread against anything on FB or Twitter even with the questionable posts. In the global fight against misinformation, A2K is not a terrible place. Could be better? Sure. Terrible? Not in my opinion.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

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Yet, we have oralloy and his klan still dropping posts about how the election was rigged and still posting QAnon conspiracy theory posts that should be taken down immediately (which they are on Facebook and Twitter).

Why should these posts be taken down? The TOS doesn't forbid unpopular views.

Able2Know is one of the few places that you can see unfiltered content from outside your political bubble.

So? You're fine with the legitimizing of QAnon theories? Basically, establishing them as facts? Even if that means the possibility of actual violence induced by their legitimization? That's fitting for you. If there is a second Trumpian/QAnon Insurrection on Washington DC or even in your own neck of the woods? You'll be there smiling. Proud that they can truly express themselves without hindrance or consequences. And as long as their literal lies are uncensored and thus allowed to continue to spread unabated? Hey. That's how we can truly unite the country. By allowing White Supremacists all-out access to all the microphones in the world.

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@tsarstepan,

Yes, I am as fine with the legitimizing of QAnon theories as I am with Black Lives Matters. In both cases, violence has erupted leading to multiple deaths.

I believe in Free Speech for

- White Supremacists,
- LGBT activists
- Anti-War protesters
- Pro abortion
- Anti abortion
- The Native American movement
- Puerta Rican independence
- Satanists.
- Illegal Immigrants
- Muslim
- Hebrew National (both the hot dog and the crazy African resistance group)

Absolutely! I believe that people should be able to express themselves, whether it is in support of Gay Marriage or Donald Trump without "consequence or hindrance" whatever that means.

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@tsarstepan,

I think the current trend of Public Shaming to punish people for holding the wrong ideas is a very troubling thing.

Who decides what the wrong ideas are anyway?

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Absolutely! I believe that people should be able to express themselves, whether it is in support of Gay Marriage or Donald Trump without "consequence or hindrance" whatever that means.

Sure, I think we all can get behind that. But I don't think that repeatedly claiming that "Trump won the election" and never providing any evidence when challenged is the same sort of free expression as saying "I wish Trump had won the election" — it approaches soap boxing, which is a violation of site rules. Biden's a pedophile, Obama was born in Kenya — these are intentional falsehoods and I don't think they have a place here.

I'm not saying those subjects can't be mentioned, but they could be dealt with differently, investigated and analyzed as topics in the public sphere instead of being proclaimed over and over as the "truth".

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@maxdancona,

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I think the current trend of Public Shaming to punish people for holding the wrong ideas is a very troubling thing.

I don't see anyone calling for public shaming here.

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@hightor,

When someone fetishises free speech they have scant regard for the truth. Lies are seen as, or even more, important as the truth otherwise why would people try to shut them down?

There is a huge difference between disagreeing about something and blatantly lying.

If something is provably wrong it should be removed. Goebbels correctly pointed out that if a lie is repeated enough it will be believed.

And you’re right, thousands of Trump supporters believe the lie that he won the election and there have been acts of violence as a result of those lies being believed.

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@hightor,

Current trend? Public shaming is as American as it gets. I mean they were hanging "witches" in the 1600's. Dad used to tell me how the town where he grew up would shun people who hung their laundry out on Sunday. Good luck if you didn't have the right religion, the right skin color, the right politics or the right accent. The difference now is who can be shamed. It used to be if you were in the right crowd then you could abuse who you wanted, say what you wanted and there were no repercussions. Now your money and the color of your skin isn't quite the defense it used to be and those upright and upstanding people aren't happy their words and actions are subject to public ridicule like the unwashed masses.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Sure, but deleting a post which claims that "Trump won" isn't public shaming.

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Who decides what the wrong ideas are anyway?

Biden's win , for instance, isn't a topic in religion or philosophy which can be debated. To claim that Trump won and Biden is an illegitimate president is simply not the case.

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@hightor,

Deleting a post that claims that Trump won is certainly censorship.

The problem with these arguments is that they are ideologically biased. After the 2016 election people claimed that Trump was an illegitimate president.

Same thing?

Saying that Trump should have won the election is an opinion that people hold. It is debatable.

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@hightor,

Isn’t “public shaming,” just another example of free speech?

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At the core of this is the fact that we have two competing ideological sides being increasingly run by the extremes. The ideological left wants to muzzle the right, and the ideological right wants to muzzle the right.

All that matters is which political side you are on.

I am taking the position that all opinions should be treated equally no matter which political side it benefits.

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@maxdancona,

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Deleting a post that claims that Trump won is certainly censorship.

If that's all the post says, I would agree. Willful and continued violation of site rules leading to a post being deleted is a different matter as discussion boards are free to make their own rules regarding content and behavior.

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After the 2016 election people claimed that Trump was an illegitimate president.

Not on A2K as far as I remember. Or put it this way — people here may have said he was unfit to hold the office but not that he wasn't elected fairly. I recall a lot of discussion about the 80,000 votes which gave him the electoral victory. And since Clinton conceded it wasn't really much of an issue, just people trying to deal with their surprise and disappointment. I don't recall any pro-Clinton mobs surrounding polling stations and threatening poll workers. I don't remember any cops getting killed as pro-Clinton mobs attempted to overrun the Capitol.

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Same thing?

No. The "stolen election" is a brand, not an opinion. A rallying call not an observation. People have had posts deleted and eventual suspensions for relentlessly pushing false claims about the Word Trade Center because it becomes an instance of soap boxing.

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Saying that Trump should have won the election is an opinion that people hold. It is debatable.

It isn't "debatable", it's an article of faith as there are no facts that can change people's minds on the issue. It comes close to proselytization.

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@maxdancona,

By the way, congratulations — six individuals have given you a thumbs up for your last few posts and you even got eight individuals to support one of your earlier ones! It must be great to have that kind of genuine support for your ideas and manner of expression!

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@hightor,

Although you can never tell if it's real or the bots generating those thumbs.

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@hightor,

Proof, if any was needed, that Max is well in with the far right extremists.

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@izzythepush,

Or perhaps a single far right extremist. It's only fair though — I recall him complaining about being voted down in the past. I'm sure he's pretty proud of the groundswell of popular support now rallying around him!

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@hightor,

I’m sure he’s on Cloud 9.

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The problem with down votes compacting comments!

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