Child vs spouse

Not every view point has to be agreed upon, but if their decision goes against the functioning of the household then it's time for the 18 yr old to vacate the premises.

I will speak of this from my experience.

Linkat, I know you are a good mother, so I'm not comparing you to anyone.

As a child and teenager I was always emotionally sacrificed by my mother to suffer at the whims and commands of my father, regardless how insane they were.

As an almost 18 year old, during a particularly heinous time, I asked her why she never stood up for me.
Her answer was "I was with him first, and I'll always pick him"
I'm well aware this is in no way your situation.

I'll temper with with saying, moving to your present, you can support you kid, but at the same time not "take sides"

Heh. Looking up, I realize I even wrote about her "standing up" for me. I didn't want her to take my side so much as just give me the support I needed.

If your husband is on a different side of a moral issue than her, he's the one that needs to understand your daughter as the right to her own opinion, and actions.
If he can suppress her for the little time she remains in your household, she will remember that over so many of the day to day little things he's done to help her, and show his love.

I would find a way not to engage directly in the issue. But let her and your husband know you'll not abandon her because of her views (which might go against hers also) and at the same time let him know that you trust her decision making ability.

The thing is, your daughter is the one who holds the power in this, not him.

If he's an ass, she can leave, and will in the long term be just fine.
If he pushes her away, again, in the long term she'll be fine. Saddened that her father chose not to treat her like a person, but knowing she needs to live by her moral compass, not his.

As for me, when I was far into my adult life, I only had pity for this man who was so unable to see anything but his view, and lost me over it. As for my mother, I grew to hate her, and was relieved when she died. She lost me too.

I suppose it depends on the “moral “ dilemma doesn’t it?

Getting a tattoo might be different than wanting to have boyfriend spend the night in the house.

Children of any age need to respect a “ not in mom and dad‘s house “ rules while at the same time , mom and dad need to realize that things aren’t the same as they were 15 , or even 10 years ago. They can work it out by themselves.

Don’t feel you have to be the referee.

What is your position? If this is a moral question you must have a position as well. On the broader level, we all have to get along with people who we disagree with. Hopefully family makes that imperative stronger.

An adult might judge matters on merit. What specifically was being discussed?

Was going to bring this up as well.

I think a lot depends on what the 'moral' issue is....dealing drugs, shop lifting, sexual identity, playing poker (I had a grandmother who thought cards were the devil's bible), social drinking........OK if the child is 18, drinking alcohol is illegal and maybe not smart but not necessarily immoral. When my nephew was about 15 my brother threw him out of the house for braking into cars. My brothers second wife didn't let the boy have friends over and was truly happy when he wasn't home...so on Friday morning he would get on the bus to go to school and he wouldn't be home until late Sunday night. He was totally unsupervised, so he hung out with other kids who were unsupervised. I was angry that my nephew did such a stupid thing, but then he came to stay with me until school was over and he could return to his mother in Texas. I had no trouble at all, he helped around the house, he liked to cook and loved athletics and we had a great time together while he was here. My brother never called once to see how he was, or if he needed anything...total zippity doo dah. He didn't even check to see how he was doing after a minor surgery to repair a broken nose (happened on his dad's watch). During this time he had to go to juvenile court for breaking into cars and was ordered to do community service.

I think my point is that you shouldn't marginalize a child (even an 18 year old) because of screw-ups. That all happened over 15 years ago and my brother lost all contact with both of the older boys. They don't speak and I think that's very sad. I can't imagine every possible situation where parents and children clash over issues.....but I would advise you to try to mediate between the two and get outside advise if necessary. Good luck.

thanks all - I was trying not to get into details because I thought it would be too long.

Some background - my daughter has anxiety and panic attacks - she is learning to manage it but as a result some things for most other teens say a break up - they would get upset and get over it, but for her - it can cause extreme emotional outbursts.

This more recent incident started over a kid in school getting covid. She found out he had at night because of going to a party. The school began reaching out to various families that were deemed to be close contact and could not come to school for so many days and to be tested within certain parameters. Any way - it ended up causing her basketball team to not have enough players - only 4 were not impacted so of course you cannot play with just 4. Rumors start and by the end of the night they are saying (the kids) no more season, no senior night and so forth.

In the morning - she refuses to get out of bed - she way overreacts saying no one is going to be in school - most of the boys in her grade play on the boys team who are all considered close contact - one of the girls is sibling of a boy on the team so that is deemed close contact so there would be maybe 7 or so kids in her grade (there are only 17 kids in her grade) - she is basically having a meltdown saying this is all she has been looking forward to was playing and now it is taken away from her along with all the other stuff she is missing out of in her senior year. Her sister was able to have a great senior and so forth.

So for a kid that can handle this sort of stress - yes they would be upset, but for her emotionally it is devastating. My husband blows up and screams you are going to school - it just ends up in a shouting match between the two.

He has an issue with his temper. I know that - she has an issue with her anxiety and when they each get this way - they are both impossible. I tell him to leave for work - he says I was take her side and goes on and on until I finally lose it.

Any way once he leaves I go talk with her - she does not want to get out of bed. I realize it will be worse for her to stay in bed, I talk her down and I listen to her. I let her know - yes she is right this is not fair for her. But staying in bed she will never over come this - I let her know how strong she is and what she can do. She has been helping at basketball camp with the very young kids on Saturday mornings - I tell her why don't you see if you can help coach some of the middle school girl teams if you cannot play in the short term - I also let her know that it is unlikely that all the games will be canceled and find out when she gets to school from her coach. I am able to encourage her to go to school - when I drop her off I tell her how proud I am that she was able to fight through this and how strong she is.

Any way it is this sort of thing that causes my husband to blow up - in talking with him yesterday after a couple of days of calming down thinking we can have a good conversation he says things like I am enabling her. I try to tell him about her mental illness and how you need to understand it. I am working with her on managing and encouraging her when she gets this way on how to handle it rather than crawl in bed - he blows up again saying things about me taking her side and I blame him for all of this. Whereas I try to calmly explain that getting angry and yelling doesn't work with her.

There is other stuff along these lines with my daughter - there is not any huge moral issues - like drinking, partying or stuff like that - she is very strong willed, stubborn and wound up tight (like her dad) and panic attacks and anxiety doesn't help.

He did let me know today that he agrees with me and that I handle it right - he just does not have the patience at all. He blows his top and says things he regrets later - like saying he won't come back or if i agree with her (which means I am trying to calm her rather than "punish" her in some way) he will divorce me.

I am just trying to keep it together.

I think you did great. Covid sucks, not only because of what happened to your daughter but also the stress that families are encountering. In this case it wasn't a case of taking one side or another but of talking both sides off the ledge and it sounds like you nailed it.

Thanks but who is going to talk me off the ledge!

She is planning on going to college in the fall praying all these vaccines help out. She is looking at several schools closest one is two hour drive but the one she is likely to go to is a 2 hour plane ride!

I do think this is good for her. To be honest I think being away from her dad will help. He increases her anxiety. He doesn't mean to - he does not know how to handle her emotions and mental state. I think the school will be a good fit. The coaches are great - the team is in the top 25 gpas of all division 3 teams in the country. She has virtually met many of the girls that are currently on the team and the school has a beautiful campus and rated as a very good academic school.

She plans on committing with them soon. Fingers crossed. Playing helps her anxiety.

Ooof.
Well I do have to say this reinforces my opinion that he’s the one who needs to adjust.
Short tempered, making wild threats (I’ll divorce you), control issues and to me insecurity is apparent.
FWIW if you’ve been enabling anyone, it’s him.

Of course I’m viewing this as an outsider, but maybe that’s what’s needed as I think there’s a level of “can’t see the forest for the tress”

It honestly makes me wonder where the root of her anxiety originated.

While your dtr is making some unlikely assumptions re scenarios of the future, and IMO obsessing on her sport, (panic/obsession are 1st cousins), telling her to metaphorically snap out of it isn’t the way.

Honestly? I think counseling for you and him would be helpful.
He thinks you staying supportive but neutral is siding against him. Instead of talking it out, he immediately jumps to “I’ll divorce you”

While it’s tempting and easy to say “he’s not like that” well, apparently he is.
Does he use his short temper to short circuit any discussion on other matters?
This might be a tool he has learned works in other areas.

I am confused though where this is a moral issue.

Well moral in that it sort of encompasses her choices - it is not just about this one issue - but this is what blew it up. Her choice say not do her homework; who she hangs out with, being up late at night on the phone and then too tired to go to school, all the stuff that teens decide that are not the best. Part of this is to allow her the freedom to screw up and learn from it prior to being out of house where the repercussions can be more severe when she makes bad decisions.

We did meet with a family therapist for a few months to held deal with her anxiety as a family. And it has helped with his temper - so much better than he has been in the past, just some things really push him - now he was completely wrong on this - but she is really hard to deal with sometimes. And she is not nice at all when she gets really stressed; almost impossible to deal with her - on the flip side though her outbursts like my husband's lack of patience has gotten better as well.

But when she does have a huge melt down like this situation - and I am very patient in normal circumstances, but I am also human - her emotions have caused me to "flip out" before. Even this instance I did lose it at one point with her. Then I walked away, calmed down and went in and talked with her.

The root of her anxiety seemed to start when she got injured - completely tearing her ACL combined with going through puberty seemed (maybe a coincidence) to be when it starting appearing. It seems to make sense as I had found out afterwards that is common to occur when you are athletic and used to be very active then have to stop completely because of an injury. When she is physically active and busy she is happiest. Why this whole covid thing pushed her even more so.

He did acknowledge he was wrong in this situation and has apologized. He knows I am in a better position to handle her when she gets for lack of a better term - over the top. He just does not have the patience it takes to handle her emotional/extreme outbursts. I have learnt what works best for her - even then it tears at my patience. She, unfortunately has lost friends due to her emotions. But like my husband, she has gotten better at managing her anxiety and panic. Her obsession with this particular incident was to say the straw that broke the camel's back - it was just one more disappointment from the whole covid thing - on more thing potentially being taken away especially during her senior year.

I get you linkat. I really do.

Stressors for all of us are pushing us over the edge.

What you said about athletes makes perfect sense. In addition, with her, do you think she may have been using sport, albeit unknowingly, for these years as a vent in the pressure cooker of her anxiety? Now that's gone and it's been manifesting itself.

Does she have any physical outlets, like running, swimming etc?

Albeit you say both of their tempers are better, they do seem like oil and water.
Better for now for them each to give the others space.

He knows she's not going to flunk out of school or be a failure if she decides to stay in bed for a day (although getting up was probably better I'm sure)

Not to get on myself again, but I so feel her feels. Around her age, I went to the dr, with my mother, I think because I was just feeling bad. For whatever reason, something triggered me during our visit, and I just broke down sobbing....Just thinking, I remember now. It was when our doctor asked me if I were having any problems. That was when I just sobbed out "my father! I wish he would just leave me alone! Why can't he leave me alone! I'm not doing anything wrong, and he's so rotten to me all the time!"
The upshot of it was that I embarrassed my mother, she rushed me out of there and just dug into me all the way home. I honestly just wanted to die. Literally.
I had a temper too, and would fight back with him. I didn't know what else to do.

Maybe he needs to......leave her alone for a bit? Let her work things out? Get the support she needs from you, and not have to be panicking about what her dad will do the next time she does something he doesn't approve of?

As adults, we can physically take breaks from others, just have me time for days or more. She can't. She literally has to see him at the dinner table every night.

Your husband isn't a monster. I don't want to imply that. You said he'd been a Marine. He lives for order and following P&P's. When she was his little girl out on the soccer field, doing activities he could identify with, God was in Heaven and all was right with the world.

He's grieving she's not that person anymore.

But his habits are set. He's going to be ok in his lifestyle.

From what you describe of her anxiety, related temper, having lost some friends, and that she's going away in the Fall, I get really concerned.

You raised her right, but there's (I think) a pretty good chance that when she's on her own, even just at college, she going to discover that alcohol, or even drugs, take away all those bad feelings.

I'm just being realistic and putting it out there.

BTW, those things you mentioned when you responded about morals? I guess it's how you think of them, but honestly? None of those things, staying up, then being too tired, etc. have nothing to do with morality. Not everything is good or bad in that way. Good people stay up too late

I get this - I have been feeling this way a lot - I see pictures when she was little and I do - grieve I wish she was happy like this picture (when she seems upset)

and yes he has taken a step back - or he had been it was just one of those human moments when it just caused him to be pushed to his limit.

I do typically take over when she is like this - I pushed her to go to school - not so much because it would have been horrible to miss (and she has missed quite a few days this year because any time you are the least little bit sick now you need to stay at home to be sure) --- but more I thought it better for her to be strong and go to school - for her own mental health - I did not think it would be good for her to lay in bed and be alone.

It ended up being a good day at school - where they got pizza and did some extra fun things like go to one of the boy's house that lives near the school (seniors can do this when they studys - one of the perks of being a senior they can come and go when they do not have a class).

for the moral - I guess maybe choices would be better just couldn't think of the right words to keep it short.

I get the drugs/alcohol thing. The one thing I love about her being committed to a sport and playing in college is if you really love it and want to be on the team - they keep an eye out for you. Coach talked about arranging them housing together - they even if they are 21 cannot drink during their sports season.

I think either way whether she is at home or away those temptations are there. Right now because of her medication she even told me she cannot drink alcohol with it. I tend to hope that her wanting to be healthy to play will help prevent this use.

But at least I feel she will be surrounded by people that have a personal vested interest in her. One of the reasons I like this school was the coaches and how close they are with the team. Some of the others were more like coaches not as personal.

And for physical outlets - she does have training outside of her sports where she works out all of her body - helps keep her from overusing certain parts of her body when you are just playing one sport. Less likely to re-injure herself.

Oh and sorry to indicate she is not playing now - it is just a short time while they have all the kids tested so she is likely if all goes well be playing on Wed.

She always loved to play - when she was younger she wanted to be a pitcher - and used to pitch in softball - she just gravitated to basketball. She will be playing and pitching this spring as the plan at this point is to have a softball season. And she played for the first time since being really little on the soccer team this fall.

Since she has loved to play and try to beat her older sister since being really little it doesn't seem to be an outlet to her stress but it definitely helps it. I just remember when she was old enough to play on a team in softball it was more one of those where everyone gets up to bat - no real score more teaching the game. The coach would get really close to each girl to pitch - he came up to my daughter and I warned him that he would want to step back when he pitched to her. She had an older sister and had been hitting with a bat for a couple years before. He didn't listen - well he got wacked with the ball as she full out hit it. He moved back after that.

Sounds like some improvement, then. Sorry I didn't have anything helpful to reply with.

I'm sorry this is happening.

I'm seeing you being strong-armed by two people who manage to use you for their advantage and refuse to see the larger picture. I'll bet you're at your wits end. And it's time you stood up. Yes, stand up for yourself because no one else will.

How dare your husband to threaten Divorce. It's unfair, manipulative, mean and downright unnecessary. The first time will be the last time. Print out Divorce papers and call a lawyer to see your options at this point. You've got to assume your marriage is over if it's come to this. This isn't Love or Compromise or even a marriage. This is him acting as poorly as he can with absolutely no consequences. So fine, if he says if you do "X" then he'll divorce you, already have the papers ready. End the bluff. Now. This isn't a game, it's you're LIFE.

You do not have to be his emotional punching bag.

--

Nor hers, either.

Seriously, if she has this much issues going to high school, she is no where near ready for college. I can't believe you'd subject the world to someone who is so emotionally vindictive, unsteady and cannot take charge of her own well being to the same people who love her, take care of her and root for her success. What in the world do you think a roommate will have to go through?? You really want her two hours away? She can't handle Life now and you think she's going to thrive? Maybe Community College where she can live at home, understand grades and attendance matter and sports is not the be all, fix all anything.

You're stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's your choosing to be there. Now figure out the best solution for YOU and let the others deal with THEIR choices.

No ... no problem I think a large part was just me venting..which just writing it down makes me feel better ... unfortunately I don’t have an outlet to let out the steam as you see I am the one being used as an outlet.