Political Ramblings: I'll read yours if you read mine

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In an effort to promote understanding of other peoples point of view and foster a climate in which political opposites can find common ground to work together, I propose the Political Ramblings thread.

The idea is to list a few of your favorite political readings which help demonstrate why you have become the liberal/conservative/independent that you are. Give a brief synopsis of each. Then, choose a book that somebody else has listed that might provide you with a different way of looking at things. We can discuss the books here.

At the very least you it should help you understand where others are coming from which could help you hone your arguments against/for certain beliefs... but you might just surprise yourself and change your mind about a thing or two... hey, it could happen.

So I'll go first.

Book 1: Vision of the Anointed by Thomas Sowell (for the cliff notes version you could read The Quest for Cosmic Justice also by Sowell).

This book tackles a wide range of topics. There were parts during the book that actually made me yell out loud wondering how these things could happen. The parts about criminal leniency made me absolutely furious. Other parts that really hit home were when the author covered trade offs and how people still push their agenda even though all the evidence says it is not working.

My one critique of the book is that he often yells a little to loud from atop his soapbox. The parts where he uses real life examples backed up by evidence is much stronger then when he is on his soapbox. I have a feeling he might yell to loud for some people to see past that to the parts that really matter.

My second book is Where the Right Went Wrong by Pat Buchanan. This is a must read for both Conservatives and Liberals. This book is a scathing critique of not only the Bush administration but also the Neocons pulling the strings. He also provides a brief history of terrorism and the different ways in which terror has won or lost wars. It is a scary look into the direction this country is headed and the consequences our action have caused.

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Excellent idea. Mine will be brief (most of my day has been spent hauling junk to the dump, planting a tree in the backyard, and cleaning my garage; luckily, I don't think it got much over 100 degree f.): Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced View of the Right. Quite simply, Al Franken exposes the frequent liberties taken with the truth by major politicians and ideologues on the right in this humorous, but scrupulously researched, tome.

I'll add more books to the list later. I'll have to think about the Buchanan book, but I'll put Sowell (fellow with the Hoover Institute, correct?) on my 'to-read' list. It's a funny coincidence that you've started this thread--I just started reading Coulter's Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism with an aim to better understand the thinking on the right. I'm only on chapter 4, but so far unimpressed--her logic is mostly tautologous and she busily tears down one 'straw man' of her own construction after another.

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I'll provide one that gave me the belief in captial punishment - the bible:

He who sheds mans blood, by man shall his blood be shed.

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Mills I would suggest reading Coulter with a grain of salt. She is sharp and witty... but with all due respect it is kind of like reading Al Franken for info from the left.

I always get the feeling that Franken is funny first and accurate second.

I highly recommend Buchanan's book... I think you'll be surprised about how much you agree with him.

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Well, Franken has "Team Franken" (14 fact-checkers from Harvard.) I still agree with the 1-2, humor first, and I don't get my info from him. But it tends to be fairly accurate.

I'm reading this thread with interest but I don't have any book to point to. I read the New York Times daily and the New Yorker weekly, and that is where I get the bulk of my information. My political leanings have been shaped through a hodgepodge of a zillion large and small things, some reading, some experience. I rarely read a book on anything political that I completely agree with, so even if we're talking books, I take a little here and a little there. Political books tend to be too agenda-laden for me, though I'll read the occasional political humor book for fun and for the occasional "go get 'em!," but not for education per se.

That said, I think Mills' point about understanding the thinking of those who listen to Coulter -- at least learning what they're listening to -- is valid.

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sozobe wrote:

I rarely read a book on anything political that I completely agree with, so even if we're talking books, I take a little here and a little there. Political books tend to be too agenda-laden for me, though I'll read the occasional political humor book for fun and for the occasional "go get 'em!," but not for education per se.

I rarely agree with everything as well but there is a ton of good info that you can pick through. Of course political books are to agenda-laden... that is kind of the point. But that doesn't mean there isn't good information in there. I think part of being able to form your own opnion is reading what others out there are thinking and deciding for yourself what to believe and what not to. One reason I started this thread is to be able to get new sources of info in which I can then filter through my current beliefs and see what conclusions I come up with.

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Sure -- my point is that it's really hard to point to a book or two. I mean, I've read "Lies and the lying liars...", but I wouldn't recommend it for these purposes I don't think. I've read "On Liberty." I've read "Candide." I've read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire." (Ouch.) It's really hard to isolate my influences.

Op-eds in the New York Times are great for some more current thinking and opinions.

I very much agree with the idea of "reading what others out there are thinking and deciding for yourself what to believe and what not to." I'm just having a hard time pointing to a book -- as opposed to news, in general -- that fits that theme.

Reading along with interest, though.

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sozobe wrote:

My political leanings have been shaped through a hodgepodge of a zillion large and small things, some reading, some experience.

Soz... I was thinking about this sentence and how it applies to me. I too have had my political leanings formed more by my experiences. Isn't it strange that two people like you and I can end up at such different places? I think that deep down we pretty much want the same things but have different ways of getting there.

One of the things I found interesting is that, once I started thinking about it, a lot of what shaped me into the person I am, happened to me at a younger age then I would have guessed. There are a couple of key times in my life, that I can point to and say, that really changed the way I look at things. Is it the same for you or is it more of a gradual thing for you?

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Hmm, hard to say. For one thing, I don't think I necessarily have a single ideology, as they are usually defined -- I usually take things on a more case-by-case basis. So what I thought when I was 12 doesn't have too much direct bearing on what I think about Iraq.

But that, itself, has been an ongoing theme -- I am perpetually skeptical and perpetually unwilling to go along with the group simply because it's the group.

When I say experience I mean things like working with the very poor, mostly immigrant deaf population in Los Angeles. It didn't change my thinking as much as deepened my understanding. For example, I already thought that there should be a safety net and that it wasn't as simple as "pull yourself up by your bootstraps," but that gave me a lot of insight as to what the difficulties are, exactly. The choice between expensive childcare that eats up all of your earnings, inexpensive childcare that has numerous problems, up to and including sexual abuse of your child, or staying home and raising your child on the minute amounts provided by welfare. Insight into just what raising your child on minute amounts means. Insight into the loss of hope, and what that means.

I guess that's another ongoing theme, a distrust of simplistic answers and a desire for nuance.

Meanwhile, I may have come up with a book, though I haven't read it -- Paul Krugman is consistently one of my favorite Op-Ed columnists.

"The Great Unraveling: Losing Our Way in the New Century"

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A People's History of the United States, by Howard Zinn is about the only thing I can remember reading that pushed me left philosophically. Like soz, I don't have a single ideology, but insight into the very types of things she talks about have changed my political beliefs (largely shaped by my parents and restricted exposure to those of other leanings) over time. The one thing that seems to paint me as liberal in these forums and in other conversations is this:

sozobe wrote:

I guess that's another ongoing theme, a distrust of simplistic answers and a desire for nuance.

Over time I've become more investigative and less willing to accept things as they are presented. Mistrustful, maybe. Some of that is because of readings like above that made me question things I had always been taught.

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sozobe wrote:

Hmm, hard to say. For one thing, I don't think I necessarily have a single ideology, as they are usually defined -- I usually take things on a more case-by-case basis. So what I thought when I was 12 doesn't have too much direct bearing on what I think about Iraq.

But that, itself, has been an ongoing theme -- I am perpetually skeptical and perpetually unwilling to go along with the group simply because it's the group.

I didn't mean to imply that what happened to me when I was 12 has an impact on how I feel about Iraq. I meant that in a broader sense, there are a few key times in my life that have steered me in the direction that I am now.

sozobe wrote:

When I say experience I mean things like working with the very poor, mostly immigrant deaf population in Los Angeles. It didn't change my thinking as much as deepened my understanding. For example, I already thought that there should be a safety net and that it wasn't as simple as "pull yourself up by your bootstraps," but that gave me a lot of insight as to what the difficulties are, exactly. The choice between expensive childcare that eats up all of your earnings, inexpensive childcare that has numerous problems, up to and including sexual abuse of your child, or staying home and raising your child on the minute amounts provided by welfare. Insight into just what raising your child on minute amounts means. Insight into the loss of hope, and what that means.

What kind of experiences did you think I meant? (After re-reading this question sounds rather snide, but it isn't meant to)

sozobe wrote:

I guess that's another ongoing theme, a distrust of simplistic answers and a desire for nuance.

Indeed. I often think that things are so complex and issues are so intertwined at this point that it will either take drastic actions in order to right the ship or it is already to late to right the ship.

sozobe wrote:

Meanwhile, I may have come up with a book, though I haven't read it -- Paul Krugman is consistently one of my favorite Op-Ed columnists.

"The Great Unraveling: Losing Our Way in the New Century"

That might be a good one... in the four or five sample pages they had up on amazon I found myself both agreeing and disagreeing on about 4 or five different issues already.

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In terms of experiences, that's pretty much what I thought you were getting at -- that there were a few key experiences that steered you in the direction of where you are now. I'm not sure if I'd say that about myself.

The "few" is where I hesitate -- in one category, there are a zillion experiences that helped determine my direction (same as with books/ reading). In another category, there are a few more major experiences, but they were almost always (there must be exceptions) towards strengthening the direction I was already going, rather than changing course.

Totally agree about compexity and intertwined-ness.

I don't agree with Krugman 100% of the time, but the percentage has to be higher for him than for most any other pundit out there.

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Experiences, well I would say that my early experiences let me on a path that might very well be called "liberal" in todays world. When I was but a mere prat of a child I lived with my parents in Saudi Arabia. In 1949 during the height of the Israel/Palestine conflict my mother, born and raised on a small farm in southern colorado who had only seen the great city of Pueblo Colorado prior to traveling halfway around the world to join my father who was employed in the original developmnent of the oil fields of Arabia started a campaign of letter writing to her friends and relatives back home in the states. When I asked her about this she stated that she was worried about the people who were victims of all the conflict so near us in the middle-east, the Jews and the Palestinians. I asked her just what a Jew was and also what a Palestinian was and she replied that she really didn't know but she did know that there seemed to be a lot of people in great hurt and she wanted to do what she could so she was asking for people to send clothes and food packages to all those that were suffering. At the time my mother did not know what a Jew was neither did she have much of an idea what a Palestinian was but she did know what human suffering was and she wanted/needed to try and help to the best of her ability. As far as reading/books goes there are a few that have influenced me but I would say that my early childhood experiences had already settled me into a philosophical bent towards liberalism. Oh yeah and my mothers father (my gradfather) was a native american who devoted his life to socialism/unionism and was the first "civil rights" worker that I came in contact with.

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Interesting Dys, one question though. Do you believe that helping people/wanting or needing to help is strictly a liberal idea?

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jpinMilwaukee wrote:

Interesting Dys, one question though. Do you believe that helping people/wanting or needing to help is strictly a liberal idea?

As a nationalistic philosophy, yes I do. Follow the money. But let me add this, I read, quite some years ago, a book by Anthony Burgess called "Clockwork Orange" that made me very seriously consider the dangers of "liberal" intentions.

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Very interesting, hence the whole anarchist thing...

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I finished reading Coulter's book a couple weeks ago (I had to take frequent breaks or risk losing IQ points). She makes many good points (her vindication of Joe McCarthy, oddly enough, was very lucid and well-formulated, defense of Nixon, celebration of Reagan, etc.). Unfortunately, she has a sophomorish reliance on tautological reasoning and the 'straw-man' approach to rhetoric. Perhaps I and the liberals with whom I associate are too far to the left, because the few liberals she parades out to critique as representative of liberal ideology in general have precious little in common with the vast majority of liberals I know and read.

I'm going to the library today and will probably pick up either the Sowell or the Buchanan book.

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Okay. The branch I went to doesn't have any of Sowell's books and while the computer claimed that the branch had the Buchanan book in circulation and that it was in, the computer LIED! The librarian doesn't know what happened to it. Anyways, I guess I'll have to either trek to the main branch or check the used book stores.

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Mills75 wrote:

Okay. The branch I went to doesn't have any of Sowell's books and while the computer claimed that the branch had the Buchanan book in circulation and that it was in, the computer LIED! The librarian doesn't know what happened to it. Anyways, I guess I'll have to either trek to the main branch or check the used book stores.

Either book is money well spent, IMO :wink:

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jpinMilwaukee wrote:

Mills75 wrote:
Okay. The branch I went to doesn't have any of Sowell's books and while the computer claimed that the branch had the Buchanan book in circulation and that it was in, the computer LIED! The librarian doesn't know what happened to it. Anyways, I guess I'll have to either trek to the main branch or check the used book stores.

Either book is money well spent, IMO :wink:

Yeah, but then people might see them on my bookshelf and begin to get the wrong idea (no, no--I read them for the articles; it's just for research...). :wink:

Actually, there's a used book store nearby that has a tremendous selection. I'll probably stop there today or tomorrow.

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Political Ramblings: I'll read yours if you read mine

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