'I can't breathe' meme will lead to more deaths

@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

The thing that is making me nervous from this act is the demands to disband the police. You think with the police gone crooks are going to decrease in number? What a load of crap.

Maybe you should consider that conservatives are actually right when we denounce the evils of progressivism.

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@justaguy2,

justaguy2 wrote:

...and you're response is nothing short of what's called, "trying to bamboozle someone with some very generalized description of a hypothetical event/situation".

You do understand that's exactly what police training is for, don't you? If a police officer can't make a simple arrest safely, then they should be looking for another job.

You also understand that people lie to the cops everyday, and therefore a fundamental part of their training to assess the situation, ensuring their own safety, as well as the safety of others involved, don't you? You also understand that thousands of arrests are made each and every day, in countries all over the world, and the vast majority are made WITHOUT anyone dying in the process, don't you?

I'd suggest you go back and actually read what has been said, it's not rocket science.

I just see a potential with this meme that more people are going to end up dying in the long run from suffocation. At first, there's going to be training and moratoriums on choke-holds, etc. but then criminals are going to be saying, "I can't breathe" all the time just to have something to say to harass the police while they're being subdued, and then one day in the future someone is really going to be trying to whisper that they can't breathe because they can't, and the cop is going to just hear it the same way he hears all the other fakers, and that one person who is truthful and not playing games is going to be the one who accidentally dies in custody.

What I'm saying is the honest people end up paying the price for all the liars who manipulate their way out of situations in various ways. It is sad. If people would just be decent enough to not say, "I can't breathe" when it's not true, they just might help save someone else's life later down the line who actually means it when they say it.

On a more general level, what I'm saying is be as nice and cooperative with police as you can muster, no matter how bad you think they might be, because it just might make a difference for someone down the line. This isn't meant to justify any police brutality or anything like that; and it doesn't matter whether you are white or black or whether the officer is white or black. Just do your best to make the police's job easy, the same as you would for someone serving your food or cleaning the bathroom you're using, or whatever.

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@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

but then criminals are going to be saying, "I can't breathe" all the time just to have something to say to harass the police while they're being subdued...

Well yeah, sure. That kinda happens when a cop is kneeling on someone's THROAT.

I'm not all that surprised you'd think people are "trying to get away with something" when being arrested. However, police procedure is there for a reason.

So nobody gets killed.

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Police officers who kill people need to be put in jail. That is the way to stop people in police custody from dying. If someone dies in police custody, the police officer had better be able to show that she did every thing possible to keep the people in their care alive.

That is the way to fix the problem. The problem is the police don't have to worry about whether people die or not, and bad cops are taking advantage of this.

1 Reply

@neptuneblue,

neptuneblue wrote:

livinglava wrote:
but then criminals are going to be saying, "I can't breathe" all the time just to have something to say to harass the police while they're being subdued...

Well yeah, sure. That kinda happens when a cop is kneeling on someone's THROAT.

Do you remember when they used to say Vietnam vets were 'baby killers,' etc.? It took a long time for people to respect soldiers as people who are in a stressful situation and bad things that happen aren't always because they are just racist monsters out to kill people because of their race. You don't/won't understand that with police, because you want to be one of those people who screams, "baby killers!" indiscriminately at anyone with a military uniform (or in this case a police badge).

Quote:

I'm not all that surprised you'd think people are "trying to get away with something" when being arrested. However, police procedure is there for a reason.

So nobody gets killed.

So you basically want people to harass police and stress them out until some officer makes a slip and kills someone so that you can blame the police in general and call for stricter regulations that allow suspects to get away easier?

And you do this because you need more teenagers to deliver your drugs without getting apprehended by police in the process?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Police officers who kill people need to be put in jail.

Why do you think police officers carry guns?

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@livinglava,

Again, people lie to the cops all the time, it's a part of the job. You wouldn't be a cop thinking everyone is going to tell the truth all the time. It's not as if the mob boss is going to say, "yeah, I killed the guy for talking to the cops", or, "yeah, I had to belt the living piss out of him because they wouldn't pay their protection money" - what self-respecting crim is going to do that ? None.

Once again, that's why they have training, that's why there's policies and procedures, and also laws - that the police are just as bound by as anyone else is. There's also accountability, and they are just as accountable as you or I.

You know why they carry handcuffs don't you? You know why those same cuffs go around your wrists and not your neck, don't you? It's because once someone cannot use their arms, there isn't much they can do as far as trying to harm anyone else - that's why they have handcuffs.

And no, unlike what oralloy/yellow cake suggests, no I wouldn't be calling you a racist, you are clearly misguided, but that does not make you a racist (although it might be reasonable to say someone who is a racist like oralloy/yellow cake are, is also misguided). I would have to also agree with another poster here in another thread that oralloy/yellow cake is also very deranged, and I think they hit the nail smack bang on the head in saying that.

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@justaguy2,

justaguy2 wrote:

a racist like oralloy

justaguy2 falsely accuses people of racism because he isn't capable of making an intelligent argument.

justaguy2 wrote:

oralloy is also very deranged,

While justaguy2 would be too stupid to be able to point out untrue statements in my posts if they existed, note that no one else is able to point out untrue statements in my posts either.

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@justaguy2,

justaguy2 wrote:

Again, people lie to the cops all the time, it's a part of the job. You wouldn't be a cop thinking everyone is going to tell the truth all the time. It's not as if the mob boss is going to say, "yeah, I killed the guy for talking to the cops", or, "yeah, I had to belt the living piss out of him because they wouldn't pay their protection money" - what self-respecting crim is going to do that ? None.

Right, that's my point. So when suspects are lying and saying that they can't breath, because it has become a protest meme, that's going to have a longer-term effect like the boy who cried wolf, where the phrase is going to lose significance and someone who really can't breathe is going to say so and some cop is going to ignore it assuming that the kid is just saying the meme, and there's going to be a death that was preventable.

Quote:

Once again, that's why they have training, that's why there's policies and procedures, and also laws - that the police are just as bound by as anyone else is. There's also accountability, and they are just as accountable as you or I.

All that was already in place before any of the current deaths happened that people are protesting. It takes more than regulations and procedures to prevent unnecessary harm; it takes conscientious cooperation between criminals and police to take special care in how they respect and handle each other. That is something that is ultimately beyond rules,regulations, and procedures.

Quote:

You know why they carry handcuffs don't you? You know why those same cuffs go around your wrists and not your neck, don't you? It's because once someone cannot use their arms, there isn't much they can do as far as trying to harm anyone else - that's why they have handcuffs.

I disagree. You can head-butt people, throw shoulders and elbows. You can kick. You can flop around like a fish. There are lots of muscles in your body with fast-twitch muscles so there is always a danger when you are in close proximity with a hostile person that they will muster a punch or kick of some kind, even if their hands are bound.

Quote:

And no, unlike what oralloy/yellow cake suggests, no I wouldn't be calling you a racist, you are clearly misguided, but that does not make you a racist (although it might be reasonable to say someone who is a racist like oralloy/yellow cake are, is also misguided). I would have to also agree with another poster here in another thread that oralloy/yellow cake is also very deranged, and I think they hit the nail smack bang on the head in saying that.

No, I know very well that there are people of various colors who exhibit criminality, aggression/hostility, etc. I can't understand how anti-racism is causing all these people to imagine that African Americans are an identity group devoid of any bad potential. There is good and bad potential in every person, regardless of identity classification; and there are plenty of people of every classification who are captive to their aggressive/lying/hostile side. Even if you are angry about giving into crime as a way to make money because you are too desperate to avoid homelessness or whatever to say 'no' when crime offers you a job, and even if you are especially angry because you know that racism plays a role in why you are discriminated against in hiring, that does not mean that you haven't fallen captive to evil in the same way that a white person can. Unfairness in the world is one of the strongest temptations to sin, i.e because people start to resent God for those things that are unfair; and that enables them to turn against Him; but it is all just another variation of Job being tested by the devil, and everyone has to rise to that challenge to praise God instead of cursing Him in order to accept salvation and escape crime and/or other sin.

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The Christian message doesn't at all support LivingLava's weird rhetoric

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The Christian message doesn't at all support LivingLava's weird rhetoric

You consider it weird because you are in denial how memes and lying/manipulation work.

In the story of the boy who cried wolf, you'd be the villager holding a cardboard sign that reads, "#believe the boy who cries wolf"

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@livinglava,

You do realize that George Floyd is actual dead, right?

Or do you think he is faking that to manipulate police officers. Your argument seems to be if we take the deaths of Black men at the hands of police seriously, criminals will start dying just to **** with the police.

You are being ridiculous.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You do realize that George Floyd is actual dead, right?

Or do you think he is faking that to manipulate police officers. Your argument seems to be if we take the deaths of Black men at the hands of police seriously, criminals will start dying just to **** with the police.

You are being ridiculous.

You're implying that I am talking about Floyd or anyone else specifically.

What I am talking about is the meme culture is that appropriating this utterance and making it into a catch-phrase. You exemplified it by posting a picture of Jesus on the cross with "I can't breathe" as text.

Everytime you post a meme like that, you are dropping a penny in a big jar that is eventually going to crack under the weight of all the pennies. What I mean with this metaphor is that the meme culture is going to eventually wear down good-faith among police and eventually some officer(s) are going to slip and just ignore someone who says they can't breathe.

Then, of course, you are going to blame those officers for the slip but at that point the next George Floyd is going to already be dead, despite the fact that people could have prevented it by not spreading insensitive memes.

There is a certain amount of divine protection that comes with not lying. E.g. if the boy who cried wolf wouldn't have lied, then when the wolf actually showed up and the boy cried out to warn the villagers, they would have listened and at least some sheep could have been protected. But once the boy started lying and desensitizing the villagers to the alert, then he was killing the possibility of his warning being taken seriously.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Quote:

You're implying that I am talking about Floyd or anyone else specifically.

What I am talking about is the meme culture is that appropriating this utterance and making it into a catch-phrase. You exemplified it by posting a picture of Jesus on the cross with "I can't breathe" as text.

This is all about George Floyd. He is the one who died at the hands of the police while they ignored him saying "I can't breathe". Had the police listened to George Floyd when he said "I can't breathe", these protests would not have happened.

George Floyd is the reason we are saying "I can't breathe".

My post showing Jesus saying "I can't breathe" is appropriate (if pointed). You brought Jesus into the conversation on the side of the right of law enforcement to kill people without being held accountable. This is ridiculous given what Jesus endured in the Biblical account.

I don't know if you actually read the bible. Jesus was killed in the custody of the authorities.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
You're implying that I am talking about Floyd or anyone else specifically.

What I am talking about is the meme culture is that appropriating this utterance and making it into a catch-phrase. You exemplified it by posting a picture of Jesus on the cross with "I can't breathe" as text.

This is all about George Floyd. He is the one who died at the hands of the police while they ignored him saying "I can't breathe". Had the police listened to George Floyd when he said "I can't breathe", these protests would not have happened.

George Floyd is the reason we are saying "I can't breathe".

My post showing Jesus saying "I can't breathe" is appropriate (if pointed). You brought Jesus into the conversation on the side of the right of law enforcement to kill people without being held accountable. This is ridiculous given what Jesus endured in the Biblical account.

I don't know if you actually read the bible. Jesus was killed in the custody of the authorities.

And Jesus was killed despite the Roman authorities finding no fault in Him, yet when it was put to the people whom to release in honor of Passover, someone else was chosen.

The reason I posted this thread was not to save George Floyd's life as he is already with God now. It was to raise awareness of the potential effect a meme like this can have on future situations where a suspect is in the same situation as George Floyd was, trying to tell an officer who might listen, that he can't breathe, but then having that officer doubt what he is saying because he has heard it so many times as a meme.

What I'm trying to explain is that if you don't create and repeat "I can't breathe" as I meme-mantra over and over, it might not get overused and then it might actually make a difference when someone really tells the officer arresting them that they can't breathe, and a life could be saved.

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@livinglava,

Quote:

Right, that's my point. So when suspects are lying and saying that they can't breath, because it has become a protest meme, that's going to have a longer-term effect like the boy who cried wolf, where the phrase is going to lose significance and someone who really can't breathe is going to say so and some cop is going to ignore it assuming that the kid is just saying the meme, and there's going to be a death that was preventable.

And that's where training and experience come in... And while you're entitled to your view, I for one don't share it. Again, people get arrested all the time, and yet, most LIVE to tell the tail. Where I live, I cannot think of even just one similar incident where someone has actually died being arrested - not even one person that even had to go to hospital as a result. And that includes people that even resisted arrest - so it speaks volumes about US police tactics, and not mention casts a lot of doubt on your claims. Again, it's called training and experience.

There was also a "Black lives matter" protest where I live just last weekend, with protesters chanting "I can't breathe" marching down the street. Guess how many people got arrested? None, zero, zilch. Guess how much looting, arson and/or property damage there was? None, zero, zilch. The police commissioner not only granted an exemption for the protest to go ahead (given the covid restrictions), he also commended the protesters behaviour, saying "it was very pleasing my officers did not have to make a single arrest".

In Floyd's case, and if you even bother to watch the video of the incident; he was not resisting them in any way from what I saw, he appeared to have already been placed in cuffs, there was therefore no reason to even pin him to the street in the first place - let alone hold him there, and compress his neck into the street.

Quote:

All that was already in place before any of the current deaths happened that people are protesting. It takes more than regulations and procedures to prevent unnecessary harm; it takes conscientious cooperation between criminals and police to take special care in how they respect and handle each other. That is something that is ultimately beyond rules,regulations, and procedures.

It was also already the case that there has always been people that will lie to the cops and try and take advantage of past events and "try it on" as it were...

So you seem to be looking at this through a political lens, and therefore in a very strange way.

Quote:

I disagree. You can head-butt people, throw shoulders and elbows. You can kick. You can flop around like a fish. There are lots of muscles in your body with fast-twitch muscles so there is always a danger when you are in close proximity with a hostile person that they will muster a punch or kick of some kind, even if their hands are bound.

You can disagree all you want, personally it's of no concern to me whether you do or not. Good luck trying to cause any serious harm to someone else with your hands cuffed behind your back, and with both arms being held by two cops either side of you. Even you you tried to kick someone you would either fall flat on your face, or flat on your ass in the process. And guess what? Good luck trying to get back up for another round when... YOU WOULD NEED TO USE YOUR HANDS TO LIFT YOURSELF UP OFF THE GROUND.

But I will agree with you on the fact there are and always have been people that will try and take advantage of such incidents. I'll even agree with you, and you're absolutely right in saying that there are good and bad people in ANY RACE. That I will agree with you on.

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@justaguy2,

justaguy2 wrote:

In Floyd's case, and if you even bother to watch the video of the incident; he was not resisting them in any way from what I saw,

Not that facts would matter to you, but for those who do care about the truth, Mr. Floyd was refusing to let them put him in the back of the police car.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

You struggle to understand even just basic facts and make them up as you go along - as noted by other poster's here in several other post's. You wouldn't know what a fact was if it were to jump up and bite you in the face.

And don't think that because I've responded to you this time that I'll be responding to anymore of your vile crap, as I won't be. In fact, I'm going to do what I should have already done and put you on ignore.

oralloy/yellow cake ignored.

1 Reply

@justaguy2,

You cannot provide any examples of me failing to understand things, making anything up, or failing to recognize a fact, and neither can any other person here.

All you do is lie about people because you lack the intelligence to contribute facts or logic to a conversation.

Ignoring me would be useful if you are serious about it. Since you have nothing intelligent to say, silence is really your best possible response when I correct your untrue statements.

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@justaguy2,

justaguy2 wrote:

And that's where training and experience come in... And while you're entitled to your view, I for one don't share it. Again, people get arrested all the time, and yet, most LIVE to tell the tail. Where I live, I cannot think of even just one similar incident where someone has actually died being arrested - not even one person that even had to go to hospital as a result. And that includes people that even resisted arrest - so it speaks volumes about US police tactics, and not mention casts a lot of doubt on your claims. Again, it's called training and experience.

You're confused about something I'm saying, because your response is talking about something completely different. You're saying "most live to tell the tale" of being arrested, as if I am talking about lots of being dying by suffocation. I'm not. I'm talking about those few rare instances where someone is in a situation where they really can't breathe and they are asking for mercy from an officer. What you have to understand is that there are people trying police officers all the time because of an anti-authoritarian culture. It has not always been like this and it's not like this everywhere, but for some reason in recent years, roughly corresponding with Trump entering the political scene, there is an aggressively anti-authoritarian culture, which I would call Nietzchean, meaning that people are vying for power and resistance in every way possible. So that means lying and fighting like toddlers who try to run away as fast as they can into a crowd without a single thought to what they can actually achieve by doing that. People are completely lost in the present moment, struggling for whatever power they can get in that moment, and subduing them is very difficult because they are angry, with a sense of entitlement to their anger, and they just don't want to settle down and cooperate. And it is in this kind of social-cultural context that a meme like "I can't breathe" can become nothing more than political ammunition for people to say as a protest mantra to police, and as a result that one rare incidence where someone is really suffocating and trying to tell the officer they can't breathe, the officer is just going to hear the meme and not realize the person is really suffocating.

Quote:

There was also a "Black lives matter" protest where I live just last weekend, with protesters chanting "I can't breathe" marching down the street. Guess how many people got arrested? None, zero, zilch. Guess how much looting, arson and/or property damage there was? None, zero, zilch. The police commissioner not only granted an exemption for the protest to go ahead (given the covid restrictions), he also commended the protesters behaviour, saying "it was very pleasing my officers did not have to make a single arrest".

The sad thing is that they're allowing protestors to infect each other with COVID19. You're hurting yourself and each other worse than the police would hurt you.

Quote:

In Floyd's case, and if you even bother to watch the video of the incident; he was not resisting them in any way from what I saw, he appeared to have already been placed in cuffs, there was therefore no reason to even pin him to the street in the first place - let alone hold him there, and compress his neck into the street.

I've just read a headline that the two had met each other before. It might turn out that there was some history between them that played some role in what happened. I'm not saying anything about Floyd's situation with this thread, though. What I'm talking about is a meme culture that desensitizes the public and police to a sentence that should not be subject to desensitization in this way, i.e. because someone in the future needs to be able to say that sentence and not just sound like he's reciting a meme to make a political statement.

Quote:

So you seem to be looking at this through a political lens, and therefore in a very strange way.

I'm looking at it from the practical point of view of meme culture and the story of the boy who cried wolf. I hope you are familiar with that story where the boy keeps crying that there's a wolf when there's not, and eventually there really is a wolf but no one thinks to take the boy seriously because they are so accustomed to the boy just shouting, "wolf! wolf!" without there actually being a wolf.

Quote:

You can disagree all you want, personally it's of no concern to me whether you do or not. Good luck trying to cause any serious harm to someone else with your hands cuffed behind your back, and with both arms being held by two cops either side of you. Even you you tried to kick someone you would either fall flat on your face, or flat on your ass in the process. And guess what? Good luck trying to get back up for another round when... YOU WOULD NEED TO USE YOUR HANDS TO LIFT YOURSELF UP OFF THE GROUND.

I agree. You probably get one shot when you feel the officer up close to you to jerk your head or whatever, but there should be a reality show or something where people get handcuffed and then see if they can hurt the person handcuffing them in some way, because I bet people would find a way, especially if there's prize money involved.

Quote:

But I will agree with you on the fact there are and always have been people that will try and take advantage of such incidents. I'll even agree with you, and you're absolutely right in saying that there are good and bad people in ANY RACE. That I will agree with you on.

Racism is what causes all these Democrats to fear that if they acknowledge any bad behavior among any black people whatsoever that they are being racist. They are politically correct to avoid being suspected of racism, i.e. because they do tend to think in a collectivist way, i.e. generalizing about police as a group, races as a group, etc. They aren't really good at thinking of individuals at the individual level. They look more at demographics and statistics and things like that that lump people together into categories, so they can try to cater to various categories and win votes that way.

1 Reply

'I can't breathe' meme will lead to more deaths

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