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Nether socialist nor liberal am I

 
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 08:03 am
Just for the clarification of name callers.

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period.

2. I believe healthcare is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system should require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable and accessible to everyone. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your or my money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work whether they be bums or the wealthy. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes in this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. I'm self-employed, so I already pay a shitload of taxes. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, that means increasing my already eye-watering tax bill. I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multibillion dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and a living wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live. A minimum wage should be a living wage. If its worth paying someone to do it, its worth paying a living wage.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal) When I get pissed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia on you? That's how I feel about "Christians" trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian, I'm Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe LGBT should have the *same* rights as the rest of us.

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer, like Trump, is hiring illegally.). I'm not opposed to deporting people who are here illegally, but I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I believe we should take in refugees, or at the very least not turn them away without at least a due consideration. Turning thousands of people away because a terrorist might slip through is inhumane, especially when we consider what has happened historically to refugees who were turned away (see: MS St. Louis). If we're so opposed to taking in refugees, maybe we should consider not causing them to become refugees in the first place. Because we're fooling ourselves if we think that somewhere in the chain of events leading to these people becoming refugees, there isn't a line describing something the US did.

11. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to make sure that their products/practices/etc are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation. If we are supposed to be responsible, shouldn't corporations be expected to be resposible, too??

12. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I'm butthurt over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be Nazis, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

13. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

14. I believe in most so-called political correctness. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person? Your refusal to adjust your vocabulary in the guise of "free speech" makes YOU the snowflake.

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I'm progressive because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn't mean you or I should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as just so money is saved.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 5 • Views: 1,687 • Replies: 119

 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 09:05 am
@bobsal u1553115,
That sounds pretty liberal right down the line (in the 2020 version of the word "liberal"). There are two closely packed ideological bubbles in the US right now. You are describing the left one.

I think the liberal label fits pretty well.

maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 09:14 am
I would be interested in hearing where you differ from liberal orthodoxy in a significant way. Where either you think both sides have it wrong, or even (shudder) where you admit that the conservatives have a valid point?

The problem is that we are so locked into our ideological bubbles, for most of us thinking independently is impossible.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 09:50 am
@maxdancona,
Its not liberal. A lot conservative christians feel exactly the same way. Where liberal/conservative comes into equation is what agency brings about these goals and values. This is humanist. Notice I don't talk about state or federal agency/responsibility - that would make it a Democrat/Republican slant. What I am manifesting is a humanist/christian outlook.
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 10:03 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
A lot conservative christians feel exactly the same way.


No they don't. Conservative christians are worried about "illegal" immigration and don't want government to have any part in health care and many other things. That's what makes them conservative and distinguishes them from liberals.

Our country is polarized into two fairly narrow ideological bubbles. One side is pro-immigrant, believe healthcare is a right and believe that Trump is a fascist. The other side is pro-border, anti-regulation and social spending.

You are simply describing one of the narrow ideological bubbles.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 10:26 am
@bobsal u1553115,
As a Socialist I believe utilities, water, gas, electricity, internet, phone, and public transport, buses trains etc. should be in public ownership.

I think penalties for fraud are far too lenient, Rich tax avoiders should be jailed for a long time.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 10:27 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Let's see if we can find a crack in the bubble...

- Do you support gun rights? (Liberals think that guns should be heavily regulated and that assault rifles should be banned).

- Do you believe that there is any religious right to not offer services (i.e. baking a cake) for events (like same-sex weddings) that offend your beliefs? (Liberals believe there is no such right).

- Do you see any issue that Black Lives Matter might put the safety of police officers at risk. (Liberals either don't see it, or don't think it matters).

I am just looking for some area where you might cross the ideological line. I think being willing to do so is important.
Real Music
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 10:42 am
mark
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 11:45 am
@izzythepush,
I agree with utilities being publicly owned as part of the 'commons'.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 11:56 am
@bobsal u1553115,
The thing with political ideologies is they tend to overlap. I consider Thomas Paine a Socialist, but not everyone does.
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 12:07 pm
@maxdancona,
I don't believe my rights to own a weapon comes from the 2nd amendment. I believe my right to own a weapon is a natural right. The 2nd amendment allows me to organize a "well regulated" militia for my and my social group if my local/state/federal government can't protect us from criminals/outside invaders/a non responsive government. It also guarantees I can't be denied membership in the armed forces.

Now for the big 'HOWEVER. When my government can't protect me from gun huggers (as opposed to the "well regulated militia"), its time to put my guns into the armory until public health and public safety is restored. When one of the major causes of childhood death is guns, we have a systemic problem: the militia is not well regulated. We need to use whatever remedy it takes until we regain "well regulation" starting from registration of all weapons, a list of those mentally incapable of owning them, a list of those criminally incapable of owning them such as felons convicted of a crime where violence or weapons were used and those with peace warrants and domestic violence breaches. Also: until we get this violence under control magazine capacities, types of ammunition, types of weapons need to be controlled.

To put it into perspective: I put away what I feel is my gawd given right to own an antitank weapon if I can hang it on the wall and keep it in such a way no one has any repercussion from my owning it as ought-ing to be legal until all the morons shooting/threatening/menacing women, children, neighbors, random people of differing color, culture and religions are gotten under control.

Then I will own weapons again.

You do know one of the biggest groups of those murdered are murdered by those they know with a weapon highly likely to be one they own or know was stored in the house.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 12:08 pm
@izzythepush,
I think Paine was a proto-socialist albeit a cranky one.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 12:10 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
In Lewis, where he was born, he appears on council issued banknotes for use in local shops.
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 01:36 pm
I've been called a Liberal by plenty of people on internet boards. After a time, it became apparent, many of them know zip about political beliefs, practices and policies. They know even less about me.

Then again, quite a few will snap a person's head off if Wikipedia is used as a source. Absurdity ensues, when, the head snapper then cites Wikipedia's themselves - and does so repeatedly.

(similarities also occur in the real world)
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 01:39 pm
@izzythepush,
I like it, I tend toward non libertarian pro-syndicalism myself. But I know if I got my wish, Libertarians and other shitheads would screw it up. So until it can be workable, a truly Democratic Republic works for me. We've been close at times. Now is not one of them. ******* Libertarians.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 01:44 pm
@Sturgis,
I admit it, I don't care much for capital letter factions. I've never considered myself a Liberal though a lot of what I believe in could be called liberal, I feel more a progressive. A lot of those same things are believed by conservative folks, too. Labeling makes it easier to for others to ideologically sucker-punch someone. To make points without proving them.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 02:05 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis, How many of Bobsals' points do you agree with?

I agree with
#2, #3, #7, #8, #10, #11, #15

I strongly disagree with
#12, and #14

I mostly disagree with
#9, #13

The others either aren't clear, or I don't have a strong opinion.


0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 02:24 pm
I'm an anarch-syndicaslist. That being said, I acknowledge that greedy, soulless capitalists have a death-grip on society, and that anarcho-syndicalism ain't gonna happen any time soon.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 02:30 pm
@izzythepush,
Lewes, not Lewis, bloody spellcheck.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2020 04:12 pm
@izzythepush,
You assume we can spell? You're lucky Jefferson and some of other founding fathers held Paine and particularly "The Rights of Man" is such high regard, otherwise we wouldn't have ever heard of him.
 

 
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