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You shall surely die

 
 
Reply Tue 5 May, 2020 02:01 pm
When God gave this warning to Adam, He did not mean that Adam would die physically that very day. However, Adam did die spiritualy at that moment. Is that clear?
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2020 05:09 pm
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

When God gave this warning to Adam, He did not mean that Adam would die physically that very day. However, Adam did die spiritualy at that moment. Is that clear?


I disagree. Although, it is correct to say that Adam was fated to die physically.

Before eating the fruit Adam wasn't human. He was incapable of sin. He was incapable of sin. Up to the point he ate the fruit Adam had no free will.

I am not sure if Adam was alive before he ate the fruit.

NealNealNeal
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2020 06:28 pm
@maxdancona,
He had free will. He was obedient to God until he ate the fruit.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2020 07:00 pm
It's not clear at all--in fact, it's bullshit. In the King James version of Genesis Chapter 3, verses 22-24:

Quote:
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


So, in fact, had the boy not been driven from Eden, he could have eaten of the Tree of Life, and could have lived forever. That's why your boy god drove him and his main squeeze from Eden. Nasty god that he is, he then explicitly tells them that they'll eat in the sweat of their faces (Verses 17-19):

Quote:
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


In Verses 17 & 18, he clearly says that he will blight the ground from which the two will have to get their bread. Your boy god is a puerile, petty and cruel being. He is also not alone. Look at Verse 22, above. He says that Adam has become "as one of us." The god-botherers always say "one of use" refers to angels, but the text does not say that. This silly story is obviously a product of the time when the Hebrews were still polytheistic. Furthermore, in Verse 19, just above, he threatens him with death--physical death. Your thesis is not supported by the text. Your god is a childish bully.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2020 08:31 pm
@Setanta,
I was a younger kid when "East of Eden" played. I pictured God as looking just like Burl Ives.

'nto the land of Nod, a little East of Eden..."
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2020 08:57 pm
@Setanta,
My post was concerning Genesis 2:17. In this verse God warns Adam that if he disobeyed God he would die SPIRITUALLY. I was challenged on that and did some research. The research confirmed what I said. Adam died SPIRITUALLY that day
As you pointed out, God prevented Adam from eating of the tree that would give him physical immortality. Why? Because Adam would live forever in rebellion to God
You are incorrect when you say that the Hebrews were polytheistic (please refer to the account of Abram). God is Triune and the discussion was in that context.
God showed great mercy to Adam and Eve However, He is Holy, and can not tolerate sin.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2020 09:36 pm
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:

He had free will. He was obedient to God until he ate the fruit.


You can not have free will without having the ability to sin. You can not love unless you have the ability to choose not to love.

Before eating the fruit, Adam was unable to sin, and his love was mechanical... he could do nothing else.

0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  4  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2020 03:14 am
@NealNealNeal,
NealNealNeal wrote:
My post was concerning Genesis 2:17. In this verse God warns Adam that if he disobeyed God he would die SPIRITUALLY. I was challenged on that and did some research. The research confirmed what I said. Adam died SPIRITUALLY that day

Pretty shabby research. As I pointed out to you in the other thread, the Hebrew word muwth is used 835 times in the KJV Bible. Nowhere do I see it used to mean die spiritually. That is just a strained exegesis to attempt to get around what the text actually says. We had another poster that tried to get around the same problem by saying that the seventh day has not ended yet.

NealNealNeal
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2020 10:31 am
@mesquite,
Numbers 26:65 uses the same term. The Hebrews did not physically die immediately.
Please refer to Dr. Terry Mortenson (May 2, 2007).
mesquite
 
  3  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2020 03:15 pm
@NealNealNeal,
In Numbers 26:65 someone wrote:
For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
Try again. Numbers 26:65 only says they will die in the wilderness. There is no time qualifier as in Genesis 2:17 (for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.) You can do better.
NealNealNeal
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2020 04:07 pm
@mesquite,
Ok As long as you know that the majority of Christian experts disagree with you
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2020 04:12 pm
@NealNealNeal,
To paraphrase Mencken, no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of christians.
NealNealNeal
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2020 04:25 pm
@Setanta,
🌞⭐🌞 to
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  3  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2020 07:02 pm
@NealNealNeal,
Addressing Setanta NealNealNeal wrote:
You are incorrect when you say that the Hebrews were polytheistic (please refer to the account of Abram). God is Triune and the discussion was in that context.
Nope he was absolutely correct. Modern archaeology has significantly increased our knowledge of the early Hebrews.
Quote:
The Bible says that the religion of Israel and Judah was always monotheistic, but this is not so. The norm was in fact polytheism. The Hebrew Bible might tell us a wonderful story that the Israelites derived originally from Abraham, a native of Mesopotamia, and then proceeded via Joseph to Egypt where they were subsequently enslaved, and that after obtaining their freedom as recounted in the Exodus legend, they progressed to Canaan which they proceeded to take by storm. However, the archaeological evidence is that they were always native to Canaan. More...
NealNealNeal
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2020 10:35 pm
@mesquite,
You are discussing minimal thought that was popular years ago. It has proven to be incorrect.
mesquite
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 03:04 am
@NealNealNeal,
I was discussing archaeological evidence. Do you have a source for whatever you are trying to say was proven to be incorrect?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 08:58 am
@mesquite,
mesquite wrote:

I was discussing archaeological evidence. Do you have a source for whatever you are trying to say was proven to be incorrect?


I was surprised when I learned that the Exodus story is fiction. There is zero evidence of the Israelites ever being enslaved in Egypt. Nor is there any evidence of that many people spending any time in the wilderness (a nation spending 40 years would leave firepits, waste, and bury their dead etc).
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 06:34 pm
@mesquite,
Minimalist thought began in the 1970s. Four men first made it popular. There discussions between minimalists and Biblical scholars called maximalists.I did research on the subject and concluded that the evidence supported the maximalists.
I also discovered that there was overwhelming evidence behind Christianity. I became a Christian.
According to the Bible humans are sinful and refuse to allow God to have His rightful position as Ruler and Judge. So they pretend that He doesn't even exist.
I highly value science when it applies to the modern world. However, I am skeptical of scientists that say they know what happened years ago. There are too many inconsistencies.
In contrast God has been faithful.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 06:39 pm
That whole silly disquisition is as full of **** as an abandoned outhouse. Prove your god exists, otherwise, you're just a stray dog barking.
NealNealNeal
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2020 06:42 pm
@mesquite,
When you first posted you used. Susanne Glover as your sole source of the discussion. Why did you remove her name from the post?
 

 
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