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The Roman Empire and the Barbarians

Forums: Historical Comparison, Roman Empire, Barbarians
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livinglava
 
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 03:04 pm
The Roman Empire charged its protectorates taxes to protect them against so-called 'barbarians' who would otherwise storm in and plunder.

In a sense, the Romans and the Barbarians formed a coordinated team that extracted taxes either as taxes to the empire or spoils of plundering.

Yet at some point the Barbarians stormed into Rome itself and plundered it.

Is the present world comparable to this, in your opinion?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 4 • Views: 1,878 • Replies: 56

 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 03:12 pm
@livinglava,
Who's plundering Rome?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 05:44 pm
@livinglava,
I don't have a clue about what this is about. The barbarians weren't Roman citizens, they were taxed without having any representation.

I don't think there is any correlation to today, at least not in the US.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 12:12 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
The Roman Empire charged its protectorates ...
To which "protectorates" are you referring?
And since nearly all provinces (during Roman Republic as well as during Roman Empire periods) were inhabited by "barbarians" (the Romans adapted the Greek term in order to refer to everyone who was non-Roman), I don't understand your question either.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 01:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

livinglava wrote:
The Roman Empire charged its protectorates ...
To which "protectorates" are you referring?
And since nearly all provinces (during Roman Republic as well as during Roman Empire periods) were inhabited by "barbarians" (the Romans adapted the Greek term in order to refer to everyone who was non-Roman), I don't understand your question either.


How is that clean energy program working out for Germany?

See now that is always the problem for you when you speak.

You went to the mat for this disaster.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 03:15 am
@hawkeye10,
It's not so clean as it was during the time we lived in Germania Superior respective Germania Inferior or - like for my place - the Saxones territories.

0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:07 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

livinglava wrote:
The Roman Empire charged its protectorates ...
To which "protectorates" are you referring?
And since nearly all provinces (during Roman Republic as well as during Roman Empire periods) were inhabited by "barbarians" (the Romans adapted the Greek term in order to refer to everyone who was non-Roman), I don't understand your question either.

I watched a documentary about some locality somewhere in Europe that flourished under the Roman Empire, but they had to pay taxes or else they would be invaded by Barbarians.

It occurs to me that this is a phenomenon not limited to the ancient Roman Empire. If you are caught between two forces and you have to pay one for military protection against the other, you are basically stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of taxes.

You either pay taxes to the one for protection, or you lose protection and the other comes in and plunders/pillages you and extracts value from you that way, ultimately causing you to flee so your land can be repurposed, for example.

I don't want to get into specific politics of specific localities, but it just strikes me that this is a timeless narrative insofar as people in this world don't simply respect each others' liberty without trying to bully others into (economic/political) submission in one way or another.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:20 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
I watched a documentary about some locality somewhere in Europe that flourished under the Roman Empire, but they had to pay taxes or else they would be invaded by Barbarians.
And this "documentary" claimed that locality was a protectorate?

The taxes paid in the colonies were collected differently to those paid in Rome, certainly sometimes collected with a different reason as well (i.e. the Fiscus Iudaicus ), but to get taxes from Barbarians that they don't get invaded by Barbarians sounds a bit ... peculiar.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It's half arsed nonsense. I think what the OP is trying to say is that without the protection of the Romans 'barbarians' would have invaded.

That's a far cry from the Romans and 'barbarians' coming to some sort of deal.

The behaviour he's describing sounds like the Vikings, they would demand protection money for not invading.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
And this "documentary" claimed that locality was a protectorate?

If you are paying for protection, then you are a protectorate, no?

Quote:
The taxes paid in the colonies were colected differently to those paid in Rome, certainly sometimes collected with a different reason as well (i.e. the Fiscus Iudaicus ), but to get taxes from Barbarians that they don't get invaded by Barbarians sounds a bit ... peculiar.

Let's say you live in an area where there is commercial activity going on. You need police or else thieves will take advantage of your wealth. If your land is worth stealing, people can invade and plunder/pillage until you die off or leave, at which point your land will be vacated so that someone else can take it over who will pay more taxes than you.

It's a simple, yet treacherous, logic of bullying people into economic submission.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:33 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
If you are paying for protection, then you are a protectorate, no?
As far as I know (admittedly, it's decades ago that I studied ancient history at university) everything outside Rome in the Roman Empire (and Republic) belonged to one of the colonies.

livinglava wrote:
It's a simple, yet treacherous, logic of bullying people into economic submission.
Might be. But they had had such kind of taxes in Rome as well as in the colonies.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:38 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

It's a simple, yet treacherous, logic of bullying people into economic submission.


That sounds like Trump's business plan.

It's the only remotely relevant thing you've posted, and that was by accident.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:40 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

livinglava wrote:
If you are paying for protection, then you are a protectorate, no?
As far as I know (admittedly, it's decades ago that I studied ancient history at university) everything outside Rome in the Roman Empire (and Republic) belonged to one of the colonies.

I am not using the word, "protectorate," in any sense except to mean that it a territory is under protection by some military force that is not regarded as its own.

Quote:
livinglava wrote:
It's a simple, yet treacherous, logic of bullying people into economic submission.
Might be. But they had had such kind of taxes in Rome as well as in the colonies.

What is your point in saying this? That it was normal? And so what if it was? How does asserting normalcy as a moral evaluation add anything to the discussion?

livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:42 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

livinglava wrote:

It's a simple, yet treacherous, logic of bullying people into economic submission.


That sounds like Trump's business plan.

It's the only remotely relevant thing you've posted, and that was by accident.

Yes, I thought of it in regards to the situation with the Kurds in Syria needing protection from Turkey and probably Russia if they are to maintain independence.

I find it sad that some simple agrarian people can be caught between superpowers who don't care about them for anything except what they can render economically.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:50 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
I am not using the word, "protectorate," in any sense except to mean that it a territory is under protection by some military force that is not regarded as its own.

livinglava wrote:
The Roman Empire charged its protectorates

So according to your definition, the Roman Empire consisted out of the city of Rome plus some dozens of protectorates.
Okay.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 06:52 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:
What is your point in saying this? That it was normal? And so what if it was? How does asserting normalcy as a moral evaluation add anything to the discussion?
Well, if this is a dsicussion about the "Roman tax system" or the "Barbarians" or the "Roman Empire and the Barbarians" still isn't clear for me.

But I respect your wish and leave this thread.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 07:03 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

livinglava wrote:
What is your point in saying this? That it was normal? And so what if it was? How does asserting normalcy as a moral evaluation add anything to the discussion?
Well, if this is a dsicussion about the "Roman tax system" or the "Barbarians" or the "Roman Empire and the Barbarians" still isn't clear for me.

But I respect your wish and leave this thread.

The OP finished with the following question:
Quote:

Is the present world comparable to this, in your opinion?

In other words, do you think that there are places/people in the contemporary world that are caught between the threat of plunder on the one hand and paying for protection from such plunder, on the other?

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 08:08 am
@livinglava,
Are you happy about the treatment of the Kurds?

Neither Turkey nor Syria are superpowers, but Trump takes his orders from Putin.

This happened because you have a pile of **** in the Whitehouse.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Oct, 2019 01:01 pm
@izzythepush,
Quit insulting piles of shyt.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Oct, 2019 06:06 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Neither Turkey nor Syria are superpowers

Do you think Kurdish forces could stand up against them or would they just feel overwhelmed by force?

I guess I just don't think people should have to fight to maintain their culture. If they are doing something wrong, they might deserve some policing/correction, but why would you displace people just to take over their land for other people? I understand that with Israel the issue was European anti-Semitism making it too dangerous for them to continue living there without a homeland, but otherwise why would you displace some people for the sake of other people to take their place?

Now as I say this, I think about migrants who would want to integrate into some new place, which is what free Americans do all the time of course; but it shouldn't become a problem to do that as long as there aren't social/cultural/economic mechanisms that start making it impossible for other residents of the area to live there.

E.g. If people started moving into US cities and all driving cars, then the infrastructure and land-development would be bad for the environment/sustainability; but if they lived peacefully and in a green way that didn't harm the environment and honored the constitution and liberty and didn't try to exploit others, people shouldn't complain about them as newcomers.

Obviously, though, if the Kurdish forces were fighting ISIS, then there were problems that prevented them from being able to live together in peace, so the question becomes what it would take for that to happen; and then you get back into the whole big issue of achieving peace in the Middle East.
 

 
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