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France + Holland say NO - signal of a political watershed?

 
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 05:57 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Who ever thought the EU constitution could work pertaining to all it had to encompass?

A friend of mine who lives in Estonia said it has made conditions much worse for the lower income people.


We don't have a constitution.

And actually I can't understand, what the EU has to do with "lower income people", since this definately is the affair of the member country (although e.g. Estonia gets a resonable sum from the EU).


My friend said almost immediately after Estonia signed on that prices on staple foods increased. Of course he was opposed to the signing so maybe he found an excuse to complain...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 05:59 am
Brand X wrote:
My friend said almost immediately after Estonia signed on that prices on staple foods increased. Of course he was opposed to the signing so maybe he found an excuse to complain...


Might well be.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 06:03 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Brand X wrote:
My friend said almost immediately after Estonia signed on that prices on staple foods increased. Of course he was opposed to the signing so maybe he found an excuse to complain...


Might well be.


I'll get a further explaination from him and report back. :wink:
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 06:32 am
Brand X wrote:
A friend of mine who lives in Estonia said it has made conditions much worse for the lower income people.

How can it have done that when the Constitution isn't even working yet? I mean, only less than half of the EU countries even ratified it yet, right. I assume it's not valid until everyone signs (Walter?). So how can there already be such effects?

I think you may have it down with the "excuse to complain" there...
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 06:39 am
All 25 members must sign it until it becomes valid.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 06:40 am
nimh wrote:
Brand X wrote:
A friend of mine who lives in Estonia said it has made conditions much worse for the lower income people.

How can it have done that when the Constitution isn't even working yet? I mean, only less than half of the EU countries even ratified it yet, right. I assume it's not valid until everyone signs (Walter?). So how can there already be such effects?

I think you may have it down with the "excuse to complain" there...


Yes, I understand it isn't ratified until everyone signs.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:02 am
Speculation about the drop in the Euro and European economy.

Excerpt:

Eichel Says It's `Irresponsible' to Create Euro Panic (Update1)

June 2 (Bloomberg) -- German Finance Minister Hans Eichel said it is ``irresponsible'' to scare the German public with reports about a possible failure of the euro.

The weekly magazine Stern yesterday said Bundesbank President Axel Weber and Eichel held talks with economists last week in which they discussed a possible breakup of the dozen-nation currency as differences in growth and inflation rates widen. A headline on the front page of Germany's biggest-selling newspaper, Bild, today asked: ``Could the mark be coming back?''

``It is irresponsible to create a panic after a magazine story that is not true,'' Eichel said in a debate in the lower house of parliament in Berlin today.

The euro fell yesterday for a second day against the dollar after the Stern report and amid a deteriorating growth outlook for the euro region. It declined to an eight-month low, dropping below $1.22, after Dutch voters followed the French three days earlier in rejecting the European Union constitution in a referendum.

``It is not too difficult to see when the decline of the euro started,'' Eichel said, rejecting the notion that the descent was triggered by the magazine report. ``It started after the French referendum.''

Source
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:10 am
Hmm, we will have general elections soon.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:19 am
A decline of a currency does not, you know, necessarily cause a deterioration of the economy which uses the currency. A depreciation of a currency makes exports more easy through lower prices seen from the foreign countries..
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:21 am
Thanks guys. Now to go back to the thesis of my thread here, I bring you exhibit 3, in full this time:

Quote:
France has a class struggle again
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:23 am
And more anecdotally, exhibit 4:

Quote:
The common man settles scores

de Volkskrant [my translation]
From our reporters Ludette el Barkany, Ron Meerhof
Thursday 2 June 2005

ROTTERDAM - Whether they used to vote Fortuyn or not, many Rotterdammers did not need to think long yesterday. "That arrogant Van Aartsen gave me the last push: no."

"Where is the "against"-button? It's the most heard question in Rotterdamse polling stations. Everybody is against, at least: 'the common man's class'.

That class for example lives in Tuindorp/Vreewijk. In 2002 they voted en masse for Pim Fortuyn here. Now it's even more crowded; a quarter of the voters has casted their vote already before noon. And everybody is against.

The voters here are almost without exception white, and dissatisfied about "The Hague" [the national government], Brussels, the elite, the euro and foreigners, the Polish in particular.

To all turn out and then vote against, 'that's the tradition here', says a polling station officer.

But not only former Pim-voters are against the Constitution. In IJsselmonde, one of the most persistent Labour bulwarks, Labour voters too massively vote no. For very varying reasons: "I can not bear it that a German would ever become president of Europe", says 69-year old Cor Blanker.

The information from the government sometimes had an effect, but always counterproductively. [Former PM] Kok chased people into the no-camp, every encouragement from 'Bakellende' [the name of PM Balkenende changed to mean "pile of misery"] was experienced as a personal insult, references to war or other scariness did not evoke fear but mere annoyance. Elly Buter (42) got the last push from Van Aartsen. 'When that arrogant slimebag swept no-voters on a pile with Le Pen, I knew: no.'

Buter is a Labour voter who sometimes flirts with the [strictly Protestant] SGP, Blanker 'sinned' just the once, when she voted Fortuyn, and in a remote past with Democrat Jan Terlouw. Try to recognize a line in that.

Parties are no longer relevant, say Koos and Fiet from Landzicht. Twothirds of that neighbourhood voted List Fortuyn a few years ago. Ever since they've stayed at home [when there were elections]. Now they've come out in force again.

With natural authority the 55-year old Koos submits his analysis: 'Everything that's from the common folk's class, votes against. Those guys from the upper class and everything that's studied, they of course vote in favour.'

Like Ms. Samson from Crooswijk. Her command of languages is sufficient for her to get all her information about the Constitution from the French media. In carefully chosen words, she expounds how The Netherlands might get isolated if it votes 'no'.

The Rotterdammers of immigrant origin in this question seem to be the natural ally of the 'upper class'. Mister Ibrahim for example is one of the very few residents of Zuidwijk who think that "the development of Europe must go on". Ms. Boualouch in North thinks so too. [Echoing the Labour Party slogan,] she votes in favour "for a stronger and more social Europe".
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:31 am
nimh wrote:
Brand X wrote:
A friend of mine who lives in Estonia said it has made conditions much worse for the lower income people.

How can it have done that when the Constitution isn't even working yet? I mean, only less than half of the EU countries even ratified it yet, right. I assume it's not valid until everyone signs (Walter?). So how can there already be such effects?

I think you may have it down with the "excuse to complain" there...


The ratification is only with the constitution, as I understand it, when a country enters Europe, it has got to accept in terms that it will have to enter the European Monetary Union with it's free traffic of goods and people so that is probably the first influence on food prices.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:39 am
Finally (for now), exhibit 5: the electoral map of the Dutch referendum, with a list of the towns that voted NO resp. YES most of all:

http://www.volkskrant.nl/images/voortegen550,0.gif

Note, the Top Ten towns with the most YES votes includes seven of the very richest and leafiest councils of the country. Mixed in is Wageningen, the small town that hosts the Agricultural University, a Green stronghold. The Top Ten towns with the most NO votes on the other hand are an odd mix of some seven stringently Protestant small towns and rural communities and two Communist/Labour strongholds in North-East Groningen.

On the map you can see, in fact, that all of East-Groningen (top-right on the map), traditionally a rural, Labour-voting area, voted strongly against. You can also literally see the Bible Belt strung from the Zeeuwish islands on the bottom-left across rural areas in the centre of the country up to where #3 is, the town called Staphorst where cursing is prohibited. Finally, you can clearly see the NO vote all around the harbour city of Rotterdam (right to the north of the Zeeuwish islands), in the white, working-class suburbs to the north and east of Amsterdam, and in the former mining towns in the East of South-Limburg (bottom-right on the map).

Yep, Van Aartsen was kinda right <places tongue in cheek> - commies, racists and religious zealots won the referendum Razz
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:53 am
So your poor, your huddled masses, your tempest-tossed, yearning to breathe free--they ain't buyin' the song and dance that the constitution appeared to be to them, eh?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 07:57 am
re a prevous response by Brand X

Quote:
A survey commissioned by the Centre for Finnish Business and Policy Studies (EVA) found that support for the EU was greater among non-nationals than among ethnic Estonians, many of them hoping that the EU would help stabilise their social status.
source: BBC 10.12.02
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 08:05 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
re a prevous response by Brand X

Quote:
A survey commissioned by the Centre for Finnish Business and Policy Studies (EVA) found that support for the EU was greater among non-nationals than among ethnic Estonians, many of them hoping that the EU would help stabilise their social status.
source: BBC 10.12.02


Quote:
Price rises are expected with EU membership, but there are hopes that it will raise living standards in the long term and guarantee security.


So his complaint is valid, his concerns for his grandmother etc.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 08:21 am
I don't have statistics at hand to compare this, but it could be.

As said above: this has nothing to do with the momentary situation re the EU-constitution.

And since Estonia joined voluntarily, by democratic popular vote (the hold a referendum on it) ...

(No one can be 'thrown out' of the EU; but every country can leave - even without having this constitution [where such is paragraphed more precisely])
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 09:30 am
Quote:
1 June 2005

ANNOUNCEMENT BALKENENDE ON REFERENDUM


After the polls closed tonight, the Dutch prime minister, Jan Peter Balkenende, offered his views on the results of the referendum on the European Constitution: 'I'm disappointed, of course, and so are many other people.'


'The government, along with many political parties and civil society, campaigned for a "yes". So, of course, we aren't happy about this result.' The provisional results show that approximately 62 percent of Dutch voters rejected the proposed constitution. The turnout was about 63 percent.

Mr Balkenende said that Dutch voters have sent a clear signal, which cannot be misunderstood. 'But there is also good news, like the high turnout and the energetic debate that has emerged all over Europe. Despite the outcome, I am happy with those positive effects.' The prime minister added that it should also be clear that the Dutch government has complete respect for this outcome.

The referendum was an initiative of the Dutch House of Representatives. Its purpose was to advise the House about what position to take on the proposed European Constitution. Therefore, Mr Balkenende said, it is now primarily up the House to decide what happens next, and its members will meet tomorrow to debate that issue.

As for the bigger European picture, the prime minister said that the agreement made in Brussels was that all twenty-five member states would consult their parliaments about the Constitutional Treaty: 'The Dutch government believes this ratification process should now continue as planned in other countries. At the end of the process, it will be important for us to see how each country has responded to the treaty.'

He added that the Dutch people voted against the proposed constitution, not against European cooperation. 'The Netherlands, as one of the founding fathers of the Union, will remain a constructive partner within Europe for taking on the problems that matter to all of us', Mr Balkenende said. 'I will tell my fellow European leaders that they must do justice to the Dutch "no". Because we understand the Dutch voters' concerns. About losing sovereignty. About the rapid pace of change, in which the public doesn't feel involved. And about our financial contribution. The European Union must take account of these issues.'

The prime minister closed his press conference with the remark that, in recent years and for the Netherlands, Europe has too often been more a matter for politicians than for the public. 'That has to change', he said. 'In the period ahead, we must put all our effort into getting the public more involved in the future of Europe. This government will devote its energies to that goal.'
Source
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 09:58 am
Setanta wrote:
So your poor, your huddled masses, your tempest-tossed, yearning to breathe free--they ain't buyin' the song and dance that the constitution appeared to be to them, eh?

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

LOL! Pretty much, yes.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2005 04:07 pm
Supporting some of Nimh's observations but adding other observations that I don't see posted yet, the following is an opinion piece from the New York Times today. I am interested in this, but have no opinion on this particular subject as I don't know what the reasons for the vote were.

Fear and Rejection
By DAVID BROOKS
Published: June 2, 2005
New York Times

Forgive me for making a blunt and obvious point, but events in Western Europe are slowly discrediting large swaths of American liberalism.

Most of the policy ideas advocated by American liberals have already been enacted in Europe: generous welfare measures, ample labor protections, highly progressive tax rates, single-payer health care systems, zoning restrictions to limit big retailers, and cradle-to-grave middle-class subsidies supporting everything from child care to pension security. And yet far from thriving, continental Europe has endured a lost decade of relative decline.

Western Europeans seem to be suffering a crisis of confidence. Election results, whether in North Rhine-Westphalia or across France and the Netherlands, reveal electorates who have lost faith in their leaders, who are anxious about declining quality of life, who feel extraordinarily vulnerable to foreign competition - from the Chinese, the Americans, the Turks, even the Polish plumbers.

Anybody who has lived in Europe knows how delicious European life can be. But it is not the absolute standard of living that determines a people's morale, but the momentum. It is happier to live in a poor country that is moving forward - where expectations are high - than it is to live in an affluent country that is looking back.

Right now, Europeans seem to look to the future with more fear than hope. As Anatole Kaletsky noted in The Times of London, in continental Europe "unemployment has been stuck between 8 and 11 percent since 1991 and growth has reached 3 percent only once in those 14 years."

The Western European standard of living is about a third lower than the American standard of living, and it's sliding. European output per capita is less than that of 46 of the 50 American states and about on par with Arkansas. There is little prospect of robust growth returning any time soon.

Once it was plausible to argue that the European quality of life made up for the economic underperformance, but those arguments look more and more strained, in part because demographic trends make even the current conditions unsustainable. Europe's population is aging and shrinking. By 2040, the European median age will be around 50. Nearly a third of the population will be over 65. Public spending on retirees will have to grow by a third, sending Europe into a vicious spiral of higher taxes and less growth.

This is the context for the French "no" vote on the E.U. constitution. This is the psychology of stagnation that shaped voter perceptions. It wasn't mostly the constitution itself voters were rejecting. Polls reveal they were articulating a broader malaise. The highest "no" votes came from the most vulnerable, from workers and the industrial north. The "no" campaign united the fearful right, led by Jean-Marie Le Pen, with the fearful left, led by the Communists.

Influenced by anxiety about the future, every faction across the political spectrum found something to feel menaced by. For the Socialist left, it was the threat of economic liberalization. For parts of the right, it was the threat of Turkey. For populists, it was the condescension of the Brussels elite. For others, it was the prospect of a centralized European superstate. Many of these fears were mutually exclusive. The only commonality was fear itself, the desire to hang on to what they have in the face of change and tumult all around.

The core fact is that the European model is foundering under the fact that billions of people are willing to work harder than the Europeans are. Europeans clearly love their way of life, but don't know how to sustain it.

Over the last few decades, American liberals have lauded the German model or the Swedish model or the European model. But these models are not flexible enough for the modern world. They encourage people to cling fiercely to entitlements their nation cannot afford. And far from breeding a confident, progressive outlook, they breed a reactionary fear of the future that comes in left- and right-wing varieties - a defensiveness, a tendency to lash out ferociously at anybody who proposes fundamental reform or at any group, like immigrants, that alters the fabric of life.

This is the chief problem with the welfare state, which has nothing to do with the success or efficiency of any individual program. The liberal project of the postwar era has bred a stultifying conservatism, a fear of dynamic flexibility, a greater concern for guarding what exists than for creating what doesn't.

That's a truth that applies just as much on this side of the pond.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/02/opinion/02brooks.html
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