Can the Republic Survive?

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I’m not yet totally, 100% jaded and cynical about our country’s ability to function as a working republic. So I’m still able to be taken aback by the open defiance the white house is showing in regard to subpoenas from Congress.
It’s made me think a lot about what the hell is going to become of that republic.
For instance, suppose one of more of the present and impending conflicts between the president and the Congress end up before the Supreme Court. Suppose further that SCOTUS rules against the president and orders him to comply. Suppose just a little bit further with me that the president simply says “Thanks, no thanks”.

What then? The SCOTUS doesn’t have a police force. As far as I’m aware, the POTUS controls the significant amount of the country’s police authority. So, what will happen then? Will we at that point simply cease to exist as a functioning republic, and begin existing as… something else?

I pose this to everyone, but especially to those among us more schooled in legal and constitutional matters. I did a bit of research and wasn’t able to find that many times that the president has openly defied the Supreme Court.

There was Abraham Lincoln defying the court’s ruling in Dred Scott v. Sandford (which would have allowed slavery). There was Andrew Jackson’s resistance to Worcester v. Georgia(which laid the groundwork for tribal sovereignty – Jackson defied it and then conceived the Trail of Tears). I’m sure someone will correct my descriptions of these rulings for accuracy, but my point is that it hasn’t happened that much.

And in any case the circumstances from our history certainly don’t fit the situation we’re in with the present occupant of the white house who seems to obstruct justice with wild abandon.
So, what will happen?

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@snood,

I wonder if it might not be similar to the aftermath of Shays Rebellion, where the ruling documents for the country were strengthened (i. e. the Articles of Confederation were replaced by the Constitution). See: https://www.history.com/topics/early-us/shays-rebellion

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@jespah,

I understand you’re answering my question about possible outcomes for the country. But I think the impetus of the particular conflict is very relevant and has bearing on the potential outcomes. Shay was a fed-up farmer and the rebellion was born out of vast public discontent. That is hardly congruous with a rebellion against judicial checks by a wannabe tyrant, wouldn’t you say?

A more strongly founded constitution would be a favorable outcome, though.

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@snood,

Oh, definitely. I was just trying to find a parallel and I admit it's not a great one. We're kinda in uncharted waters here.

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@snood,

I share your worries. Someone also put forward the idea that Trump would lose the next election by a narrow margin and simply declare it void.

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@roger,

I know, right? The scary thing about it to me is, every time someone finishes one of these scenarios that has Trump defying the law and gets to the 'what then'? part, I haven't heard anything really convincing or comforting. It's almost like this guy Trump might really be leading us to a cliff.

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@snood,

I keep thinking 'Venezuela'.

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The one thing we have going for us is that the President seem not to be hold in high regard by either our law enforcement or our military so I can not see any of them backing him if he try to reenacted napoleon troops chasing out the members of the French parliament at bayonets point with members of congress.

Now if we would hear about Trump courting ‎COL James J. Tuite IV head of the Old Guard then we might have something to be concern about.

It would be interesting however for the first time in our history we would need to depend on our military to be loyal to our constitution an not the chain of command beginning with our so call president.

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

The one thing we have going for us is that the President seem not to be hold in high regard by either our law enforcement or our military so I can not see any of them backing him if he try to reenacted napoleon troops chasing out the members of the French parliament at bayonets point with members of congress.

Now if we would hear about Trump courting ‎COL James J. Tuite IV head of the Old Guard then we might have something to be concern about.

It would be interesting however for the first time in our history we would need to depend on our military to be loyal to our constitution an not the chain of command beginning with our so call president.

Yeah I guess it would be interesting. But that’s one civics lesson I’d rather we don’t have to live through.

Just look at where we are. We’re actually unsure, and wondering aloud whether or not our police or military could save us from a president in open defiance of the law.

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snood wrote:

For instance, suppose one of more of the present and impending conflicts between the president and the Congress end up before the Supreme Court. Suppose further that SCOTUS rules against the president and orders him to comply. Suppose just a little bit further with me that the president simply says "Thanks, no thanks".
What then?

Congress could impeach him and remove him from office.

But given the Democrats' history of framing innocent Republicans for imaginary crimes (Scooter Libby), and their history of placing their own people above the law (Bill Clinton), I really don't think the Republicans will support removing Trump from office. The Democrats have just abused the legal process way too much for it to work for them now.

So the answer to your question is, then nothing. Then he just ignores the Supreme Court and gets away with it, just like Bill Clinton got away with all of his crimes (unless you want to count a $25,000 fine as adequate punishment).

But this is not really something to worry about. Trump has complied with adverse court rulings so far. There is no reason to think that he will not continue to comply with adverse court rulings.

I think the left's biggest worry should be: What if the Supreme Court sides with Trump?

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@snood,

snood wrote:

BillRM wrote:

The one thing we have going for us is that the President seem not to be hold in high regard by either our law enforcement or our military so I can not see any of them backing him if he try to reenacted napoleon troops chasing out the members of the French parliament at bayonets point with members of congress.

Now if we would hear about Trump courting ‎COL James J. Tuite IV head of the Old Guard then we might have something to be concern about.

It would be interesting however for the first time in our history we would need to depend on our military to be loyal to our constitution an not the chain of command beginning with our so call president.

Yeah I guess it would be interesting. But that’s one civics lesson I’d rather we don’t have to live through.

Just look at where we are. We’re actually unsure, and wondering aloud whether or not our police or military could save us from a president in open defiance of the law.

Well for myself being near the end of a normal lifespan with no children or grandchildren so living in interesting times can be more entertaining then anything else.

Who would had guess that a great world shaking nation could be brought down by a fairly stupid conman.

Of course we do have one genus behind the scene but it surely not Trump but a man name Putin.

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