Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 02:50 pm
AOC says that no one must judge her faith. What does she mean, exactly? That no one can question her interpretation of morality because she claims to be a person of faith? Does she think that it is impossible for liars to claim faith to gain the appearance of legitimacy while in reality being apostatic in their beliefs?

Faith in Jesus helps us realize salvation from sin, which we all have in Christ; but does anyone expect no other Christian will disagree with them because, if we did, we would be 'judging their faith?'

It's a bizarre thing to say. It sounds like when a liar aggressively accuses you of calling them a liar when you question something they say. It certainly doesn't seem like something that would foster open, constructive discussion regarding any kind of political topic.

I also found it interesting that AOC also mentioned it with regard to religious migrants, as if liars are incapable of feigning religion where doing so wins them access to material benefits, such as migration entitlements. Obviously Christians should want to support the downtrodden in their struggles and cross-bearing, but we have to realize that the devil is hiding everywhere and turning people against each other.

Stopping the drug and sex trafficking that abuses migration as a means of economic exploitation would be a good step toward figuring out which migrants are sincere and honest. Maybe there should be the option of voluntarily submitting to body x-rays or some other drug testing as part of asylum requests. Of course that wouldn't stop traffickers from sending people over as liaisons/etc. but it would at least ensure that the people being tested are clean. The problem would be that traffickers would flood those gates with clean people to tie up resources so they could get away with sending other people through at other weak points in the border.

So it's really hard to know what would actually work to stop the drug and human trafficking so that other, legitimate migrants can get through.
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maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 03:11 pm
@livinglava,
1. Jesus was a migrant himself as a child (he fled his native land to escape violence).

2. Jesus said "welcome the stranger", and "whatever you do to these [migrants] you doe to me". In Matthew 25 he says quite clearly that people who claim to be religious, but don't welcome and give aid to immigrants were going to be cast out of his sight with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I don't know about AOC's faith.

But you are not a follower of Christ. I hate the hypocrisy of people who claim to be Christians, and yet have too much hatred to accept or help immigrants. If you are going to justify your own hatred of these people... don't drag a perfectly good religious figure into it.




maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 03:28 pm
@livinglava,
Let's ask the obvious question... do you have any fruits of the Spirit, or are you using fake religion to justify your political beliefs?

Let's say you find out that these walls, family separations and harsh treatment of migrants makes them more vulnerable to "drug and sex trafficking". And that by having a softer policy that welcomes them, gives them support and legal care and treats them with compassion when they get here regardless of what is causing them to make this trip... it makes them more able to protect themselves from mistreatment.

If you found out that helping immigrants actually helps immigrants..... would you change your harsh political views?
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 03:48 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

1. Jesus was a migrant himself as a child (he fled his native land to escape violence).

You say this as if I have some problem with migration. I like migration, when it is honest and legitimate. I hate the fact that traffickers exploit desperate people to move drugs and prostitution into wealthier areas so they can extract money from them.

Do you think Jesus or any of the early Christians would have carried drugs or prostituted themselves for money in their migrations? They would try to liberate other migrants from subservience to such evil, wouldn't they?

Quote:
2. Jesus said "welcome the stranger", and "whatever you do to these [migrants] you doe to me". In Matthew 25 he says quite clearly that people who claim to be religious, but don't welcome and give aid to immigrants were going to be cast out of his sight with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yes, but He also reproved sin.

Quote:
I don't know about AOC's faith.

But you are not a follower of Christ. I hate the hypocrisy of people who claim to be Christians, and yet have too much hatred to accept or help immigrants. If you are going to justify your own hatred of these people... don't drag a perfectly good religious figure into it.

What you are saying right here is exactly what AOC would refer to as "judging faith." Worse, you're strawmanning me as hating people I don't hate.

Hate the sin, not the sinner. Let the one without sin cast the first stone.

None of that obstructs the Christian duty to reprove sin, though. Stop confusing discipline/reproof and judgment.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 03:56 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Let's ask the obvious question... do you have any fruits of the Spirit, or are you using fake religion to justify your political beliefs?

No, I truly believe we are all God's children and that we are all forgiven and saved in Christ. I also believe that we are called to be our brothers' keepers and to reprove sin in order to help people overcome it.

Quote:
Let's say you find out that these walls, family separations and harsh treatment of migrants makes them more vulnerable to "drug and sex trafficking". And that by having a softer policy that welcomes them, gives them support and legal care and treats them with compassion when they get here regardless of what is causing them to make this trip... it makes them more able to protect themselves from mistreatment.

I think you have traffickers who exploit kindness as weakness. What you have to realize is that people lie. They lie a lot. So you can have migrants lying and acting like they are not working for some thug who has threatened their life and/or their family to keep them quiet and lying to authorities.

These people may not be working for thugs voluntarily, but they are working for them nonetheless. The question is how to disincentivize the thugs from seeing opportunity in exploiting the people they exploit. If migrants can't get through, what incentive would a thug have to abuse them and their family to gain control over and exploit them?

Quote:
If you found out that helping immigrants actually helps immigrants..... would you change your harsh political views?

What I would like to see is an end to trafficking. I would like to see drug and sex business ended so that people are free to migrate for legitimate reasons. I would like to see people about to be honest and open about their reasons for migrating because they are not being threatened with violence and used to traffic drugs/sex/labor and remit the money as ransom for loved ones being threatened in various ways.

So, yes, I would like to see people helped out of criminal exploitation/victimization by stopping crime.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 04:08 pm
@livinglava,
I don't know if you have ever actually read the Bible with an open heart, rather than twisting it to fit modern American politics to protect the wealthy from the poor (for which it was never meant.

If you read the life of Jesus, as a whole, you will see a man who ate with prostitutes and sinners (the very people you are insulting). Jesus attacked the wealthy, and he attacked the powerful. He defended the vulnerable and the lawbreakers. You crucified Jesus for breaking the law to defend the vulnerable, and now you are using his name to justify the exact opposite of what he stood for.

The Jesus in the Bible would attack US republicans with their religious hypocrisy, wealth, privilege and power and religious hypocrisy. Never did Jesus worry about

Your view of the gospel of Jesus is severely twisted.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 05:14 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I don't know if you have ever actually read the Bible with an open heart, rather than twisting it to fit modern American politics to protect the wealthy from the poor (for which it was never meant.

By saying that, you're twisting it to support socialism, which it doesn't.

If anything, the teachings of Jesus support true communism, i.e. communism where the miracle of the bread and the loaves is achieved by austerity among all for the benefit of all; but that has nothing to do with sharing money or (re)distributing wealth, except maybe to the extent that basic necessities like food and warm clothing (and peace) constitute wealth.

When you say "protect the wealthy from the poor," you imply that the Bible in some way legitimates the poor attacking wealthier people. It says that it's harder for a rich man to get into heaven than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle, but that only implies that the poor should help liberate the rich from their materialism, not enviously steal their wealth from them to satiate their own materialism/greed.

Quote:
If you read the life of Jesus, as a whole, you will see a man who ate with prostitutes and sinners (the very people you are insulting). Jesus attacked the wealthy, and he attacked the powerful. He defended the vulnerable and the lawbreakers. You crucified Jesus for breaking the law to defend the vulnerable, and now you are using his name to justify the exact opposite of what he stood for.

The moment you mention insult, that gives away which side you are on. Satan is the master of pride. Insult is a sin to pride, but pride itself is a sin.

I don't have any problem with prostitutes or any other sinners, so long as they are in submission to Holy Spirit. As long as they reject/defy salvation/redemption, they are saved but you can't do anything with them. Jesus said treat them as tax collectors and gentiles. Certainly, though, he wanted us to reach out to them with reprove so that they can see the error of their ways and repent before it's too late.

Quote:
The Jesus in the Bible would attack US republicans with their religious hypocrisy, wealth, privilege and power and religious hypocrisy. Never did Jesus worry about

Why would you think Jesus would forgive/love/redeem/save anyone less than anyone else because of their political affiliation or anything else about them?

Salvation is for everyone, but they have to accept Jesus. Once they do, they are in submission to Holy Spirit and they will be guided to sanctification. We can try to help each other but we don't always get everything everyone else gets right away; and sometimes we are led astray by false prophecies/guidance. All you can do is repent and hope for deliverance.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 06:17 pm
@livinglava,
You are so unlike Jesus. Jesus was love, compassion, and mercy toward people in need including prostitutes and sinners. You are none of that. I haven't seen you suggest any one of the fruits of the Spirit toward people in need. Jesus never withheld his compassion to people in "submission to the Holy Spirit"... that is your self-righteous term, Jesus never said anything like that. He just loved.

Jesus reserved his wrath people like you... using religious words to justify oppressing people who are much less fortunate than you. He called you a "whitewashed tomb" because because you use religion for protection rather than for compassion.

Quote:
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’


Yes, it is Jesus down on the border suffering and seeking mercy and compassion. And you are the one insulting Jesus in his time of need.

If you believe the Bible at all, it should terrify you. This passage was written for you who use religion to justify cruelty.


Sturgis
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Apr, 2019 10:19 pm
@maxdancona,
Actually max, the fellow going by the name of Jesus in the Bible wasn't a wrathy sort. He had a few outbursts over the years; but, they were rare and far between.


It's odd how you say Jesus was "love, compassion and mercy..." yet then describe him as wrathful, angry. Jesus would be speaking to the sinners and attempting to bring them over into the light and compassion for all. He would be frustrated, not angry. Isn't it said that among his final words were, "forgive them Father, they know not what the do." ? That is really the point. A true sinner has not a clue as to what they are doing wrong or the pain it may cause. That is why both Jesus and God will forgive and bless them.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 May, 2019 02:35 am
@Sturgis,
Have you read the Bible? Jesus had some very angry outbursts, they were all directed at the very religious hypocrisy that LivingLava is showing. LivingLava is using self-righteousness to blame very vulnerable people for their own suffering. This is what Jesus hated.

Read Matthew 23 where he calls self-righteous religious people "snakes" and vipers and tell them they are condemned to hell. And Mark 12.... it wasn't migrant women and children that Jesus was physically driving out with a whip... it was the powerful religious hypocrites who who were using religion to oppress them.

Jesus was angry at the very thing that LivingLava is doing, using religion to justify protecting his own privilege at the sake of the needy.

Jesus said literally.... "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not."

These are harsh words from Jesus Christ. This is a thread that LivingLava started about judging people based on their faith. Given the words of Jesus... I think this is the correct response and on topic of the thread.

livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 May, 2019 04:32 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are so unlike Jesus. Jesus was love, compassion, and mercy toward people in need including prostitutes and sinners. You are none of that.

Christians aren't like or 'unlike' Jesus. We are forgiven within His resurrected body.

What are prostitutes and sinners in need of more than forgiveness, salvation, and liberation from sin? They can get that through acceptance of Christ. All we can do for them is attenuate them to the good news.

Quote:
I haven't seen you suggest any one of the fruits of the Spirit toward people in need. Jesus never withheld his compassion to people in "submission to the Holy Spirit"... that is your self-righteous term, Jesus never said anything like that. He just loved.

What makes you think He is withholding it now? Jesus is everywhere and available to all. You just have to accept it and believe.
Quote:

John 3-16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ... For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Quote:
Jesus reserved his wrath people like you... using religious words to justify oppressing people who are much less fortunate than you. He called you a "whitewashed tomb" because because you use religion for protection rather than for compassion.

I don't think you understand compassion well enough to know what you're talking about. You might be mistaking service to things like envy, greed, pride, etc. as compassion, but you're not doing anyone any favors by feeding the flames of their worldly desires.

People have needs, but that is usually not what they are struggling with. How hard is it to get food and warm clothing and shelter if you aren't wasting money and opportunities on useless wants and prideful/lustful pursuits?

Quote:
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

So start spreading the word of the fish and the loaves. Through austerity, everyone can live a modest material existence. It's only because of rejection of austerity at the most fundamental level that people think they are deprived when in fact they are overlooking the vast abundances available to them all around for pennies.

Quote:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

And what do you say about people who have money for grain but who buy meat (or alcohol/drugs) and cause themselves to go hungry? You can't force people to save their money and spend it thriftily. They have to see the light for themselves, which they will do if they pray sincerely for guidance from above.

Quote:
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

Is there any shortage of food or clothing or clean water to wash and heal with?

Quote:
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

And that is why we have to go on preaching austerity no matter how much greed and envy and pride turn people against us for it.

Quote:
Yes, it is Jesus down on the border suffering and seeking mercy and compassion. And you are the one insulting Jesus in his time of need.

Or it is puppets of evil masters who torture and hold loved ones hostage to force migrants into performing the roles they want them to, whether it's flooding the border to manipulate political opinion or to overwhelm border police so drug shipments can get through weak points more easily.

Don't assume everyone who migrates is not being puppeted by evil puppet-masters. Obviously we should want those puppeteers to let their slaves go, but how can we force them when both master and slave deny and keep it secret for the sake of lying their way further toward the bounty?

We have to stop the use of illegal drugs and other trafficked commodities to remove the reason for enslaving migrants as migrants. They might still get enslaved as farm laborers, the way slaves used to be used; but in a modern capitalist world, you have to realize that people are enslaved/coerced to move lucrative products like drugs and sex because that generates more profit than using them to farm crops.

Ideally the whole world would liberate itself from economic coercion and exploitation and everyone would voluntarily cooperate to produce food and everything else we need to live, but until that happens, you cannot assume that everyone in need is operating under their own free will and not out of coercion.

Quote:
If you believe the Bible at all, it should terrify you. This passage was written for you who use religion to justify cruelty.

Cross-bearing is not justification of cruelty. It is a strategy for surviving, coping, and gaining spiritual deliverance from suffering.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 May, 2019 04:49 pm
@livinglava,
This isn't about "puppet masters", it is a about human beings.

A mother and a child, or perhaps a father and son are picked up on the border fleeing a place where they face documented severe poverty, sickness and brutal violence.

- You can either welcome them in, provide them with services and legal aid and give them a place to live and earn a living. People who have legal status, access to lawyers and the resources that we all have aren't vulnerable to bad people. "Welcome the stranger" is a command.

- Or you can hold them into detention, perhaps separating parents from their children, deny them resources and legal aid and send them back into violence and poverty as soon as possible.

You are choosing the cruelty, lack of mercy and harshness towards vulnerable people... That isn't what someone who follows Jesus would do.

In fact this is exactly what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 25 when he says "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels". He is talking to you.

The rest of what are saying is bullshit. What these people need, and what Jesus clearly says that Christians will give them... is help, aid, comfort, mercy and compassion.


livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2019 05:16 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This isn't about "puppet masters", it is a about human beings.

One human being threatens another while the victim's family stays behind in some village. The migrant than knows they have to traffic whatever substance or do whatever work they are told to do or else there will be repercussions for their loved ones. It is basic hostage-ransom logic and there are lucrative drugs, prostitution, and other smuggled commodities/services being sent into the US to tap into US markets.

The only reason I can think that liberals deny this is because they like drugs and prostitution, which they think should be legal anyway, and they have to keep those a secret because they are taboo to talk about openly.

People are exploited to provide expensive recreational drugs and prostitution/porn. Until those basic human abuses are stopped, migrants are going to be abused/exploited. When you liberalize borders, you are liberalizing them for the traffickers of the terrible products to enslave migrants to their business.

Quote:
A mother and a child, or perhaps a father and son are picked up on the border fleeing a place where they face documented severe poverty, sickness and brutal violence.

So stop traffickers that push them into that situation.

Quote:
- You can either welcome them in, provide them with services and legal aid and give them a place to live and earn a living. People who have legal status, access to lawyers and the resources that we all have aren't vulnerable to bad people. "Welcome the stranger" is a command.

Liberty involved the freedom to live and make your own living. It is something people should have throughout the world, not just in the US. Why is the left afraid to expect the whole world to respect liberty as such? Answer: because they have fallen into the anti-liberty ideology that the US is an empire and the way to stop imperialism is to replace it with socialism. Socialism is the actual imperial ideology, because it requires everyone to serve collective economic goals without respect for individual/independent prerogative. Liberty is the ideology of voluntary cooperation free of coercion and manipulation. It has yet to be achieved completely in practice, but God willing it will survive as an ideal if we don't give into socialism as more than an emergency measure where liberty is failing to provide basic necessities.

Quote:
- Or you can hold them into detention, perhaps separating parents from their children, deny them resources and legal aid and send them back into violence and poverty as soon as possible.

We need to figure out ways to check them for drugs. Only when traffickers have no hope of sending drug mules will migrants be free of drug traffickers. Realize that part of the trafficking strategy is to flood the borders and overwhelm checkpoints so the select few carrying drugs can get through more easily.

The border has to be secure against crime in order to be fair to non-criminal migrants. Do you not understand that criminality ruins the border for everyone the same way it ruins neighborhoods for the good, law-abiding people that live there?

Quote:
You are choosing the cruelty, lack of mercy and harshness towards vulnerable people... That isn't what someone who follows Jesus would do.

Why don't you understand that accepting crime, which tortures people, whether they are in transit or at home, is cruel?

Quote:
In fact this is exactly what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 25 when he says "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels". He is talking to you.

I don't believe you are a true Christian. I think you are a Satanist who spins Bible quotes against Christians to attempt to bend them to your will. I could be wrong. Only you know the truth within, and it is up to you to get straight with God.

Quote:
The rest of what are saying is bullshit. What these people need, and what Jesus clearly says that Christians will give them... is help, aid, comfort, mercy and compassion.

Imagine you have a minister who is giving away free meals, so cynical politicians from throughout the area send him all the poor to feed, knowing it will overwhelm him and force him to set limits on the food charity he's giving out.

That is what I believe is happening with migration these days. Drugs and other illicit businesses have generated enormous profits and so those business people can hire and/or violently pressure hoards of desperate people to flood borders to create a spectacle and attempt to manipulate politicians and distract police from drug shipments. Somehow it has to subside so true charity can prevail. What can we do to stop these drugs and other trafficking/exploitation besides pray? Everyone who tries to stand up to it is accused by the left of cruelty, as you are doing here. It makes it all but impossible to stop the problem that's really causing all the cruelty against migrants, i.e. drugs/crime.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2019 11:37 am
@livinglava,
This is a thread about faith, compassion and mercy. Your politics arent relevant (and contradict the teachings of Christ).

Jesus spoke to humans with compassion, he healed them, he met their needs. He showed them compassion. He told his followers to welcome the stranger and give to those in need.

You are attacking these migrants by accusing them of being drug mules. And you are coming up with every reason from treating them as human beings worthy of compassion and mercy.

Your politics dont make sense. If they were drug mules, they would be carrying drugs (which they are not). You are bearing false witness by saying a lie to condemn others.

Here is a human in need of compassion, legal help and a welcome. That is what Jesus calls for. The commands of Jesus are pretty straightforward; feed the hungry, welcome the stranger. The excuses you are giving for ignoring the call of Christ aren't anywhere in the Bible.

Telling a person in need you can't help for political reasons is against everything Jesus taught.
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2019 01:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Have you read the Bible?



Most, if not all and what I might not have, was probably read to me from various people.

Quote:
Jesus had some very angry outbursts


I am well aware of this.

Putting that on the side, my comment was about God. God is the one that would exercise love and mercy unilaterally. Jesus tried; however, being a human he had human emotions. This would at times cause his anger to appear.
Knowing this was sinful, Jesus would ask The Father (Abba) to forgive and set him (Jesus) back in the path of righteousness.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2019 02:19 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This is a thread about faith, compassion and mercy. Your politics arent relevant (and contradict the teachings of Christ).

Jesus spoke to humans with compassion, he healed them, he met their needs. He showed them compassion. He told his followers to welcome the stranger and give to those in need.

You are attacking these migrants by accusing them of being drug mules. And you are coming up with every reason from treating them as human beings worthy of compassion and mercy.

Your politics dont make sense. If they were drug mules, they would be carrying drugs (which they are not). You are bearing false witness by saying a lie to condemn others.

Here is a human in need of compassion, legal help and a welcome. That is what Jesus calls for. The commands of Jesus are pretty straightforward; feed the hungry, welcome the stranger. The excuses you are giving for ignoring the call of Christ aren't anywhere in the Bible.

Telling a person in need you can't help for political reasons is against everything Jesus taught.

I am not making up accusations to demonize anyone. I am telling you the logical strategy behind why there are so many migrants flooding the border. I have explained everything and you continue to ignore it in favor of your perverse application of Christian ideas you are abusing by ignoring half the truth.

God and truth are inseparable. You can't ignore what's really going on and then pretend like the struggle against sin is abuse and judgment. We are charged with the task of being our brothers' keepers and reproving this world to make it better. Part of that might involve turning the other cheek sometimes, but we have to acknowledge the reality of what's going on, who's abusing/exploiting whom, and not support crime and abuse by ignoring when people take kindness for weakness.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 May, 2019 04:40 pm
@livinglava,
This is a thread you started about "Judging Faith". We are here to judge your faith. You are failing. You are calling the life of Jesus "perverse".

Jesus talked about welcoming the stranger. Jesus talked about treating people with compassion and mercy. Jesus talked about comforting people in need, giving them they need and welcoming them in. Jesus talked about treating other people the way you would want to be treated if you weren't in your position of privilege and power. And Jesus was angry at people like you who had privilege without compassion.

Jesus never talked about "logical strategy". He never worried that having compassion might defeat political goals.

You are also bearing false witness, breaking one of the ten commandments of God, by accusing people of being drug mules (drug mules would have drugs on them, which they clearly don't).

You are telling a lie to justify your lack of compassion for them.

According to the faith you say you believe, you will be judged. If you have any real belief, consider this very carefully. It should make you afraid. This is written specifically to you; someone who claims to be a follower of Christ, but fails to have compassion for migrants and people in need.

Quote:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.



livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2019 02:28 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This is a thread you started about "Judging Faith". We are here to judge your faith. You are failing. You are calling the life of Jesus "perverse".

Jesus talked about welcoming the stranger. Jesus talked about treating people with compassion and mercy. Jesus talked about comforting people in need, giving them they need and welcoming them in. Jesus talked about treating other people the way you would want to be treated if you weren't in your position of privilege and power. And Jesus was angry at people like you who had privilege without compassion.

Jesus never talked about "logical strategy". He never worried that having compassion might defeat political goals.

Jesus dealt with people who listened to Him. When he said, "let him without sin cast the first stone," people put down their stones because they engaged in honest introspection. They were not power-mongers out to lie and steal and abuse and exploit others by any means possible and be damned to hell if that's what it takes.

Quote:
You are also bearing false witness, breaking one of the ten commandments of God, by accusing people of being drug mules (drug mules would have drugs on them, which they clearly don't).

"Bearing false witness?" Do you deny there is a drug culture? Do you deny that there are trafficking strategies that involve employing poor people as decoys for the drug mules?

Quote:
You are telling a lie to justify your lack of compassion for them.

If you have compassion for prostitutes, do you ignore the sex industry? If you have compassion for people being used/abused by drug gangs, traffickers, and other organized crime; do you make it easier for the to do the jobs crime uses them for?

Think of it another way: If someone has a gun to their head to burglarize your mother's house, do you think it is compassionate to give them the key to the house, even though that will encourage the practice of forcing others to burglarize houses?

Quote:
According to the faith you say you believe, you will be judged. If you have any real belief, consider this very carefully. It should make you afraid. This is written specifically to you; someone who claims to be a follower of Christ, but fails to have compassion for migrants and people in need.

We are saved. Read the Bible.

Quote:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I gave you insight and you rejected it in favor of supporting the drug/crime industry exploiting migrants. What will your experience in purgatory be like for that?

Quote:

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

What is better? To put people in prison and given them food and drink, or to stop their exploitation by traffickers so they can farm and provide themselves with food and drink?

Why not stop the drug users who fund the traffickers to exploit migrants instead of letting them farm? How is it better for people to be a slave to users of cocaine and prostitution than to farm the land for food?
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2019 03:28 pm
@livinglava,
You are saying that we should deny these migrants because they are drug mules. These migrants are not drug mules. You are bearing false witness towards them. That is a sin.

These migrants are human beings facing extreme poverty. They support, aid and compassion. The Bible is very clear, the command is to feed them, clothe them and to welcome them in. There is nothing more than that.

You are making excuses for why you don't want to have compassion for these migrants. The nonsense you are saying about drug wars, and burglaries have nothing to do with faith... there is no biblical or faith support for these excuses.

You are making excuses for your disdain for these people and your lack of compassion for them.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2019 08:31 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are saying that we should deny these migrants because they are drug mules. These migrants are not drug mules. You are bearing false witness towards them. That is a sin.

If you take 100 people who could be working productively farming and pay them drug money to flood the border so police will be overwhelmed and those carrying shipments can find weak points more easily, that is sinning against those people.

Enslaving people to users of recreational drugs and prostitution is not compassionate. It's the opposite. Opening borders to traffickers so they will be more inclined to hire more farmers into trafficking and decoying for mules is something we should stop so that, ultimately, migratory liberty can be honored as something that doesn't get abused by exploitative trafficking markets (both traffickers and the drug/prostitution clients they serve are who you are helping and supporting with open borders in the current situation).

Think of it this way: let's say you want to free-range your pet hamsters so you open the door to their cage and let them freely roam in and out, but you do nothing about the cats who like to chase and ultimately harm/kill them for pleasure.

Now who did you really support by leaving the door to the hamster cage open? The hamsters or the cats that abuse and exploit them?

Quote:
These migrants are human beings facing extreme poverty. They support, aid and compassion. The Bible is very clear, the command is to feed them, clothe them and to welcome them in. There is nothing more than that.

What are you talking about? They are farmers being bullied out of farming by people who want to use them to make money by 'migrating them' to more lucrative markets.

Quote:
You are making excuses for why you don't want to have compassion for these migrants. The nonsense you are saying about drug wars, and burglaries have nothing to do with faith... there is no biblical or faith support for these excuses.

Your denial of migrant-abuse shows not only a lack of compassion; it is the opposite of compassion when you ignore the ways crime abuses poor people and even blame/demonize the police who are trying to stop those who abuse and exploit them.

Quote:
You are making excuses for your disdain for these people and your lack of compassion for them.

How about this: let's stop the drug and sex trafficking industries and then see what kind of free-migration utopia we can create? I am all for achieving a climate-sustainable and environmentally-restorative world by changing consumer/travel habits so that they don't contribute to environmental and social-economic problems.

Migration makes diversity and cultural enrichment possible that don't happen when people avoid travel. People can learn new languages and experience new perspectives that stimulate creative problem solving. But all those positive advantages of migration and travel can only occur if exploitation and abuse of migrants and their travel is not happening.

Until that abuse and exploitation stops, free migration becomes the opposite of positive migration. It becomes a torturous leviathan that serves as propaganda material for those who seek to spread xenophobic fear and hate.

This is why it's so important for Democrats who are against xenophobic fear and hate (as they claim to be) to stand up to drug/sex trafficking and other nightmarish abuse of migration/migrants. If we want to have positive freedom of movement, we have to stop its abuse by terrorists who gain financially by everything from drug trafficking to hostage-ransom to establishing exploitative trade patterns globally.

To make any community good, you have to police it against those who undermine good in the community. Somehow we have to police the global community so that transnational crime and exploitation give way to mutual respect and honor of liberty; i.e. true liberty where people exercise their freedom responsibly and not in ways that exploit and abuse others whom they only see as a means to improving their own bottom-line.

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