Should the Pledge Of Allegiance be mandatory?

Alabama Admits Its High School Graduation Rate Was Inflated

December 19, 201611:30 AM ET
Heard on All Things Considered
DAN CARSEN

"This is not one of those situations where it's just smoke. There is in fact fire," said Alabama's new state superintendent of education, Michael Sentance.

The fire: Sentance revealed earlier this month that high schools there have "misstated student records ... resulting in diplomas that were not honestly earned." At a recent meeting of the state school board, he also admitted that Alabama's education department had not provided enough oversight.

"This is a black eye for the department," Sentance said, "and it makes the education system here look bad, and in some ways undeservedly so."

The revelations come as high school graduation rates have been rising across the country, nowhere more than in Alabama. Its rate, now at 89 percent, has risen 17 points since 2011. The average state increase was barely four points.

Earlier this year, Alabama's previous superintendent said of the improvement: "Our school systems have been able to do unbelievable things."

At some point, though, Alabama's meteoric rise attracted the attention of the U.S. Department of Education. Its Inspector General's office is officially auditing the numbers. The state is also doing its own review.

Even without the results of those audits, Sentance acknowledged that the state had allowed two practices to artificially inflate its graduation rate. First, it had counted special-needs students who had earned an Alabama Occupational Diploma, which is not tied to the state's learning standards. It had also failed to flag districts for graduating students who hadn't completed the requisite coursework.

Several state school board members said they felt betrayed by the revelation. Stephanie Bell put it bluntly:

"The lie was promoted. We were entirely misled."

It's hard to know how wrong Alabama's high school graduation rate is until those audits are finished. Also, some policy changes legitimately boosted the rate. For one, the state encouraged scheduling flexibility and classes outside the traditional school day, which helps students juggle jobs and school. Also, improved record-keeping ensures students who transfer to other high schools and then graduate are included in the overall graduation rate, where previously many had fallen off the rolls. That improvement has been most significant in urban areas where families bounce between districts.

But Bell sees real problems with Alabama's state-encouraged, locally customized programs meant to give students second chances.

"I would hear from parents, I'd hear from teachers, I'd hear from local principals about grade changes," she says. "And in every case, practically, it was a result of the credit recovery program. The intent was to help, but what it became was a Band-Aid just to get them out the door."

Bell isn't the first to raise red flags about the rigor of interventions like credit recovery. In fact, the NPR Education Team produced an entire series on such quick fixes, aptly named The Truth About America's Graduation Rate.

Some educators, though, are fine with "getting [students] out the door," even if diplomas don't mean what they used to.

"The piece of paper gives you the opportunity to play the game," says Terry Roller, the new superintendent of Talladega City Schools.

Roller worries more about young people being able to feed their families than about graduation standards that don't keep up with the economy.

"The industries that students are going to be working in in 10 to 15 years don't even exist," Roller says. "Who's to say that the standards that we have in place now are preparing them for that."

For Roller, who struggled in high school, it's also personal:

"I didn't go the traditional route, and now I'm the head of a school district, making decisions to change the lives of young people. If we can give them the diploma and get them out the door, they have a fair shot. They can go out and create jobs and spark growth and change communities. ... I did it."

The U.S. Department of Education might not see it that way. Its audit of Alabama's graduation data could lead to federal money being withheld if serious infractions are found. And then there's the state-led audit, which could trigger disciplinary action at the district level.

In the meantime, Sentance is reorganizing his department to strengthen oversight, with the goal of making sure the state's future graduation rates are remarkable, not unbelievable.

These people have never heard of the Constitution. This nonsense was decided by the USSC years ago, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-latest-controversy-about-under-god-in-the-pledge-of-allegiance

It seems they've got an end-around by not requiring students to partake in the mandatory daily pledge. Andof course we should have no doubt that any student's choice to take advantage of that fact would be nothing but respected.

Well, it's back...

"The state’s House of Representatives voted 101-9 requiring all public schools, in grades from kindergarden through 12th grade, to recite the pledge every morning. Schools are required to conduct it, but students will not be required to participate, The Associated Press reported."



Although participation isn't mandatory, I still wonder what happens to the students when they do not participate. Bullying and shaming come to mind.

Sigh. Hey, if they want to pay to go to the USSC and relitigate it, I hope they don't take it out of education budgets (although you and I both know they will).

1. Are the teachers required to cite the pledge of allegiance?

2. Or do they also have the option to not participate?

Some people in the US love their Freedom... the Freedom to tell others what to do.

Can schools require students to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
BY SCOTT BOMBOY, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 02/26/19 06:30 PM

A recent dispute at a Florida public school related to the Pledge of Allegiance raises an interesting question about student rights, at least in two states.

The dispute, according to school and police reports in Lakeland, Florida, started when a student and substitute teacher argued over the student’s refusal to take part in the pledge in class. The student was arrested after the dispute, police said. And the school district said, “To be clear, the student was NOT arrested for refusing to participate in the pledge; students are not required to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance.”

The student’s mother told a local television station she wanted the charges dropped, and the school should be disciplined for its actions, and not her son. The story soon received national media attention.

But lost in that attention is a debate about a seemingly settled constitutional precedent: the right of students to opt out of the pledge at public schools. In 1943, the Supreme Court ruled in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that “the Free Speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits public schools from forcing students to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance.”

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein," said Justice Robert Jackson in his famous opinion.

The National Constitution Center looked at the Pledge of Allegiance statutes or other guidance for all 50 states. In all, 32 states have laws or guidelines that specifcally say students can opt of the pledge on their own. Another 15 states have statutes that are unclear, delegate the choice to local schools or parents, or seem to indicate students must take the pledge. And three states (Iowa, Vermont and Wyoming) don’t have state pledge laws.

Of the states that seem to require the pledge, there is leeway for schools to allow students to not take it. Georgia’s law, for example, reads that “each student in the public schools of this state shall be afforded the opportunity to recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America during each school day.” But in guidance from the state’s Department of Education from 2006, public schools were told that “students not participating in the recitation of the Pledge may stand and refrain from reciting the Pledge or may remain seated.”

Massachusetts had its Supreme Judicial Court clarify the matter. In its 2014 decision in Doe v. Acton-Boxborough Regional School District, the court said students could not be compelled to recite the pledge. “It is undisputed, as a matter of Federal constitutional law and as a matter of fact on the summary judgment record before us, that no student is required to recite the pledge,” said Chief Justice Roderick Ireland.

However, two states, Florida and Texas, have seen their pledge statutes tested in court, since they require permission from a parent or guardian for a student to decline to take part in the pledge.

In Texas, one dispute seemingly ended in December 2018. A high school senior, India Landry, sat during the Pledge of Allegiance at her school and was expelled. Landry sued the school and the state of Texas intervened in the lawsuit.

“The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly held that parents have a fundamental interest in guiding the education and upbringing of their children, which is a critical aspect of liberty guaranteed by the Constitution,” Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton said. “The Texas Legislature protected that interest by giving the choice of whether an individual student will recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the student’s parent or guardian. School children cannot unilaterally refuse to participate in the pledge.”

That case apparently ended in a settlement with a defendant. But federal district judge Keith P. Ellison had determined the case could move forward on First and 14th Amendment grounds before its dismissal.

A case Ellison referenced in his decision, Frazier v. Winn, ended in a different way in 2008, when the 11th Circuit Appeals Court said Florida’s statute requiring parental permission was constitutional. “Although we accept that the government ordinarily may not compel students to participate in the Pledge, e.g., Barnette, we also recognize that a parent's right to interfere with the wishes of his child is stronger than a public school official's right to interfere on behalf of the school's own interest,” the court said in an unsigned opinion. “Most important, the statute ultimately leaves it to the parent whether a schoolchild will pledge or not,” the court explained.

The United States Supreme Court didn’t grant an appeal in Frazier v. Winn. However, in 2010, Florida’s Department of Education advised schools the opinion left open “the possibility that the parental consent requirement can differ, or may not apply at all, depending upon the maturity of the student.”

Even for the most “fixed star” among Supreme Court decisions, the question over the Pledge of Allegiance is not entirely settled today, at least in Florida.

Man oh man, the pledge is such a smokescreen.

Why spend time helping students learn or fix schools when instead you can just force kids to recite a meaningless patriotism signal?

I don't think this is anything new. I remember daily pledges when I was in elementary school. Making a statewide law to codify what is already in place in all the counties is just throwing red meat to the base.

I also remember citing the pledge of allegiance in Elementary school back in the 1970s.
I don't know if it was ever an actual law.

I worked as a teacher in Massachusetts. Yes, teachers can be required to recite the pledge. Teachers do not have the same legal right to free speech as students since leading the pledge is part of the job requirement.

I asked a lawyer about this just after I got my teaching licence. It wasn't a big deal... but they had a general legal workshop for new teachers and I was curious.

Thanks for the clarification.

What harm is caused by saying the pledge of allegiance in school?

1. For kids with religious objections such as some Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses it puts them in a difficult spot.

2. And it teaches conformity and unquestioning alliegience... something in direct conflict with what many of us feel should be taught in school.

The pledge is respect for our founders If you have any respect for the USA and our founders you will stand for the pledge. I am a middle school student and I am NOT religious but I stand for the pledge because I am an American and I am proud of the USA. IF YOU DO NOT STAND FOR THE PLEDGE YOU DO NOT HONOR THE USA

Soooo Jehovah's witnesses aren't patriots? What part of the First Amendment doesn't apply to them?

I see nothing wrong with -



There are many things that are mandatory AND requires students to participate in public schools. This does not so I see no issue with it.

I doubt (although it is possible) that bullying and shaming will not occur. Having kids in public schools recently - this isn't the type of thing that is bullied or shamed. If anything I have seen the opposite in instances of stuff like this.

That is not to say there isn't bullying or shaming - just this would be such low fruit on kids caring meter it wouldn't even register.

This is all to make the adults feel better.