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Nuclear explosions in space?

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 12:11 pm
timberlandko wrote:
All hypothecation, of course, but without goin' into hypothecation re the direct kinetic effect of a nuke burst in near proximity to a space-borne object, there would be considerable thermal and EMF effect - both of which might be expected to have some influence on the target mass' momentum, trajectory...

I doubt this will be a noteworthy effect. The vector sum system momentum after the explosion cannot be different from the system momentum before the explosion. The meteor can only experience a change in momentum, if there is a cancelling change of momentum experienced by other matter. If the meteor has a mass of 10^7 kg and we hypothesize that the explosive substance plus some of the meteor propels it by being ejected in the opposite direction, and that the latter totals 10^3 kg, then the meteor will experience a maximum change in speed of one ten thousandth the speed of the reaction mass, and that much only if the reaction mass is absolutely unidirectional in a tight beam, which, of course, it won't be. You have to take into account that no bomb is going to create new momentum. The real value of such an explosion would probably be in breaking up the meteor into pieces that would miss the Earth even though their common center of mass continued on target towards the Earth.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 12:33 pm
Why waste time with a nuclear bomb? Aim a high-powered laser at one side of the asteroid. This creates a low-thrust reaction engine, but the thrust is constant.

Or use a series of bombs, setting each one off in the same crater. Your efficiency improves as the crater deepens.

SF authors have been writing about this stuff since at least the '50s.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 12:39 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Why waste time with a nuclear bomb? Aim a high-powered laser at one side of the asteroid. This creates a low-thrust reaction engine, but the thrust is constant.

How much force does this produce? How much mass is the meteor likely to have?

DrewDad wrote:
Or use a series of bombs, setting each one off in the same crater. Your efficiency improves as the crater deepens.

SF authors have been writing about this stuff since at least the '50s.

Unlikely to work well for the reasons connected with the conservation of momentum that I have mentioned. A rocket engine could work if the amount of fuel was huge - at least a thousandth of the mass of the meteor, or if the situation were caught very early.
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2005 12:39 pm
boom boom drive.

Dr Robert Forward suggested that as a technological feasible interstellar drive way back in the 70's. And it would also dispose of all those nasty ole small thermonuclear devices laying around all those missile nosecones.

Rap
0 Replies
 
einherjinn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 08:34 am
No, oxygen is not needed for a nuclear weapon to explode.
0 Replies
 
anastas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 05:54 pm
If a nuclear weapon were to explode in space, there would be no explosion. One hydrogen plus one hydrogen equals one helium. There would be a CRAPLOAD of light. There wouldn;t be heat because heat is caused by the movement of acotms/molecules and since this is in a vacuum, there's no particles to haveheat. It would be akin to a miniature sun.

Surprise! The sun gives off light because of fusion. It's like millions of nukes exploding in one area.

This brings up an interesting question: If we nuked Jupiter, would it become a sun?
0 Replies
 
husker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 06:02 pm
anastas wrote:
If a nuclear weapon were to explode in space, there would be no explosion. One hydrogen plus one hydrogen equals one helium. There would be a CRAPLOAD of light. There wouldn;t be heat because heat is caused by the movement of acotms/molecules and since this is in a vacuum, there's no particles to haveheat. It would be akin to a miniature sun.

Surprise! The sun gives off light because of fusion. It's like millions of nukes exploding in one area.

This brings up an interesting question: If we nuked Jupiter, would it become a sun?


good question - I bet so

I bet when our sun goes into super nova it will take care of that
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 06:15 pm
There is no way Jupiter could become a star. The smallest stars theoretically possible are about 0.08 times the mass of the Sun. Jupiter is only about 0.001 times the mass of the sun.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 09:42 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Why waste time with a nuclear bomb? Aim a high-powered laser at one side of the asteroid. This creates a low-thrust reaction engine, but the thrust is constant.

How much force does this produce? How much mass is the meteor likely to have?

DrewDad wrote:
Or use a series of bombs, setting each one off in the same crater. Your efficiency improves as the crater deepens.

SF authors have been writing about this stuff since at least the '50s.

Unlikely to work well for the reasons connected with the conservation of momentum that I have mentioned. A rocket engine could work if the amount of fuel was huge - at least a thousandth of the mass of the meteor, or if the situation were caught very early.

Perhaps, but the exhaust velocity is huge. Also, it depends on how long the vector has to work. Think of the size of the Earth compared to the size of Earth's orbit. It wouldn't take much of a deflection to make something miss, assuming it was a reasonable distance away.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 09:57 pm
Looks like the Air Force has done some research on the subject: http://www.au.af.mil/au/2025/volume3/chap16/v3c16-1.htm#Contents

Check out the chapter on mitigation.

Quote:
Rockets employing chemical (conventional) or nuclear warheads already exist. They fall short, however, in terms of range, megatonnage of yield, and ECO intercept capability. Many scientists believe that nuclear weapons systems are currently the only feasible method for planetary defense for most situations, and much analysis and research has gone into the subject. Depending on the primary factors, the rocket(s) would be launched to deflect the ECO that it would not impact the earth or to fracture the ECO into sufficiently small pieces. The rockets may be earth- or space-based. Actual employment of the weapon system would involve either a single or multiple proximal burst(s), surface burst(s) or subsurface burst(s). In general, in the deflection mode, proximal bursts minimize the potential danger of fragmentation of the ECO but at a penalty of greater required yield when compared to surface or subsurface bursts. Surface bursts could be used to deflect or destroy the ECO. Subsurface bursts would be used only to fragment the ECO. Table 7 lists the required nuclear explosive yields necessary to perturb the velocity of various size asteroids by 1 centimeter per second (sufficient time if a decade is available to achieve deflection), or, in the case of subsurface bursts, to fragment the asteroid into pieces less than 10 meters in diameter, as estimated by T. J. Ahrens and A. W. Harris.83

V.A. Simonenko et al. estimate a 1 MEGATON nuclear charge detonated on the surface can deflect a 300 meter 'astral assailant' if it is engaged at a distance about equal to the earth's orbital radius.84 Roderick Hyde et al. estimate that hundreds of gigatons of energy will be required to deflect an asteroid of 10 kilometers by about 10 meters a second at a time greater than two week's distance from earth.85

Table 7 - Nuclear Charges Required for Various Asteroid Employment Scenarios

<table snipped due to formatting>
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 09:57 pm
Sorry Brandon, but the conservation of momentum you talk about is exactly the principle that makes rocket engines work, providing up to 500,000 lbs of thrust these days.

If 1% of the meteor was blown off in one direction going 5000 mph, then the other 99% would have to go (approx.) 50 mph in the opposite direction.

The mass of the fuel or explosive, whether nuclear or chemical, makes little difference to that.

The boom-boom space drive is similar: just a big solar sail with a series of nuclear bombs detonating next to it. Not much mass is expelled but it goes out REALLY fast, and to add to that thrust you can always toss in some alpha particles or whatever space dust you gather along the way.

Sound good? Well, let's do it! Who brought the skeets? "PULL!"
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:17 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
Why waste time with a nuclear bomb? Aim a high-powered laser at one side of the asteroid. This creates a low-thrust reaction engine, but the thrust is constant.

How much force does this produce? How much mass is the meteor likely to have?

DrewDad wrote:
Or use a series of bombs, setting each one off in the same crater. Your efficiency improves as the crater deepens.

SF authors have been writing about this stuff since at least the '50s.

Unlikely to work well for the reasons connected with the conservation of momentum that I have mentioned. A rocket engine could work if the amount of fuel was huge - at least a thousandth of the mass of the meteor, or if the situation were caught very early.

Perhaps, but the exhaust velocity is huge. Also, it depends on how long the vector has to work. Think of the size of the Earth compared to the size of Earth's orbit. It wouldn't take much of a deflection to make something miss, assuming it was a reasonable distance away.

If you assume a ratio of masses between the deflected meteor, and the reaction mass, e.g. some gasses and scraps of meteor, that is also the ratio between velocity changes. Therefore, if the meteor had a mass of 10^7 kg (I just made that up) and the expelled gasses, etc. had a mass of 10^3 kg, the ratio of velocity changes would be 10^4. Therefore, even if the gas had a speed of 10,000 mph, the maximum speed the meteor could change by would be 1 mph, and that much only if the reaction mass were all going in the same direction so that vectors would add like scalars. This does not seem very feasible.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:17 pm
anastas wrote:
If a nuclear weapon were to explode in space, there would be no explosion. One hydrogen plus one hydrogen equals one helium. There would be a CRAPLOAD of light. There wouldn;t be heat because heat is caused by the movement of acotms/molecules and since this is in a vacuum, there's no particles to haveheat. It would be akin to a miniature sun.

Surprise! The sun gives off light because of fusion. It's like millions of nukes exploding in one area.

This brings up an interesting question: If we nuked Jupiter, would it become a sun?

You might wanna look into physics ... there's some evidence in your post there of a deep misunderstandin' of how stuff works.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:23 pm
The reaction mass is irrelevant.

The propelled mass is what's used for thrust.
The fuel or explosive doesn't have to be part of that.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:33 pm
CodeBorg wrote:
Sorry Brandon, but the conservation of momentum you talk about is exactly the principle that makes rocket engines work, providing up to 500,000 lbs of thrust these days.

If 1% of the meteor was blown off in one direction going 5000 mph, then the other 99% would have to go (approx.) 50 mph in the opposite direction.

The mass of the fuel or explosive, whether nuclear or chemical, makes little difference to that.

The boom-boom space drive is similar: just a big solar sail with a series of nuclear bombs detonating next to it. Not much mass is expelled but it goes out REALLY fast, and to add to that thrust you can always toss in some alpha particles or whatever space dust you gather along the way.

Sound good? Well, let's do it! Who brought the skeets? "PULL!"

Your analysis is correct except for a couple of things. First of all, I assume that we are talking about a meteor with a diameter of at least a mile. If a few missiles were sent up, the total mass of the missiles would not be the tiniest fraction of a percent of the mass of the meteor, and the mass of the portion of the missiles that actually pushes against the meteor and participates in the momentum exchange would be a fraction of the missile mass.

Now you are hypothesizing that some of the meteor blows off and becomes reaction mass too, ejected like the fuel from a rocket engine. Note, however, that the idea that the ratio of the velocities is in the ratio of the masses is only true if the reaction mass is perfectly unidirectional so that the vectors of the bits add like scalars and there is no cancellation of momentum between the bits. Certainly just shooting a few missiles at the target will not produce a unidirectional beam of that much meteor. You would need at a minimum to land on the meteor and produce some type of shaped explosion by digging and burying the bomb. Even so, getting something like a 5,000 mph unidirectional beam of one tenth of a percent of a meteor miles in diameter seems awfully difficult. At a minumum you would have to land on the meteor and bury the bombs.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 10:36 pm
CodeBorg wrote:
The reaction mass is irrelevant.

The propelled mass is what's used for thrust.
The fuel or explosive doesn't have to be part of that.

By the term "reaction mass," I mean the propelled mass - the equivalent of the fuel ejected from a rocket. As you say, conservation of momentum is what makes a rocket go.

Total system momentum after the explosion is exactly identical to system momentum before the explosion. The explosion cannot create new momentum. The only way that the meteor heads off one way is for a substantial amount of mass to head off in the other direction. The ration of the speeds is at best equivalent to the ratio of the masses.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Apr, 2005 11:49 pm
Without even considerin' the effects of a blast - nuke or conventional - one thing that would factor into the kinetic effect of a direct collision would be the relative velocity between the impactor and the target object. The asteroid would be travelin' at a pretty appreciable rate of speed relative to the approach vector of the impactor, which itself would have significant velocity. A BB closin' on a battleship at 30 or 40 thousand miles per hour is gonna release a helluva lotta energy when it gets to the battleship.


If nothin' else, embeddin' a sturdy penetrator deeply into an asteroid seems a relatively simple task; a contemporary bunker-buster is capable of penetratin' many yards of earth, rock, and reinforced concrete, with a delivery speed of a mere few hundred miles per hour.

Arm the asteroid penetrator with a nuke of a few dozen megaton yield triggered to detonate a few milliseconds followin' impact, and I figure the combined effects would be pretty impressive - approachin somethin' on the order of vaporization of a few cubic miles of asteroid mass.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 01:51 am
timberlandko wrote:
Arm the asteroid penetrator with a nuke of a few dozen megaton yield triggered to detonate a few milliseconds followin' impact, and I figure the combined effects would be pretty impressive - approachin somethin' on the order of vaporization of a few cubic miles of asteroid mass.

Unfortunately, the ejected material would probably go off in numerous directions, and some bits would have momenta that partially cancelled each other. The closer to a unidirectional beam you could achieve the better, and without considerable ejected meteor material you could not possibly produce enough momentum, since the mass of the explosive material itself would be trivial.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 02:13 am
"numerous directions": Are you saying that some of the material would go "down" through the meteor to the other side, so the explosion would be greater than a hemisphere?

Also, is 1% or 0.1% of the meteor's material "considerable" enough, if it were projected at very high velocity? One nuclear bomb can create a crater 2 Km wide. That's only 1% of a meteor 5-10Km wide, but it's a LOT of propellant to be going several 1000's of mph.

C'mon. Not even a nudge? Not even 20mph off course? Get those calculators! I see a lot of vectors going "up" and not a whole lot "down".



Plus, you don't gotta dig much. 1 meter is plenty enough to "couple" the explosion seismically to the ground.
Earth-Penetrating Weapons
Quote:
For example, exploding a 10-kiloton nuclear weapon at a depth of one
meter would increase the effective yield by a factor of 20, resulting in
underground damage equivalent to that of a 200-kiloton weapon exploded at
the surface of the ground. But increasing the penetration depth to five
meters would only increase the effective yield by an additional 60%, to 320 kilotons.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2005 02:49 am
And that's another thing! Just how much is "enough"?

If we slap the meteor upside the head about a week before it
hits us... not only did we sucker-punch the trajectory, but all
we gotta do is get, um... a 23.8 mph sidestep into it. That's
enough to dodge 4000 miles out of an Earth impact.

Dudn't take much.




What I'd REALLY like to see is for it to skim the atmosphere,
slow down, and establish an elliptical orbit ... not around
the Earth ... but the Moon! A chunk of ice and iron that
occasionally swings by a Lagrange Point, mmm, that's good eatin'!
We could use that water and iron. I vote we keep the meteor
and take good care of it.

All we gotta do is think of a name.
0 Replies
 
 

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