Tales from the Men's Rights Crypt!!

Jorden Peterson has some interesting things to say about the necessity of rough and tumble activity between adult men and children, raising boys, what causes bullying and aggressiveness, bullying, and masculinity in general. Google his video lectures.

Does Peterson defend bullying like so many do?

What is a Jorden (sic?) Peterson?

Jordan Peterson is a controversial, outspoken Canadian clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson

Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't understand the angry reaction to this ad by so many men. An ad says that men shouldn't condone bullying and sexual harassment of women, and people get upset about it? We're living in an era of hysteria.

Me too.

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American men became more enraged over a shaving ad that asked them to be better people than they did about children being separated from their parents and put into detention camps.

Does this ad really challenge anyone to be a better person?


Tsarstepan started this thread to attack people. In the opening post he refers to people as a "dumpster fire". They aren't talking about how they can be better men, or stop being bullies, or build up and protect people around them. It is kind of funny that rather than inspire decency and self-reflection, it seems to be provoking self-righteousness and name calling from the people who are defending it.

I thought the ad was worthless and a political appeal. I wasn't outraged by it.

But it is a fair question (for Edgar, Tsarstepan or anyone else)... how did this ad inspire you to be a better man, to treat people better and to stop mistreating people around you? If the ad could do that, I would be all for it. If the ad provokes name-calling, self-righteousness and political attacks then I am not such a fan.

The ad is a cynical attempt by a large corporation to recapture market share for their highly overpriced products.

If there is such a thing as "toxic masculinity" then, surely, there is such a thing as "toxic feminity." There is neither. There are "toxic" behaviors by bent people.

Bullying is not limited to males. Fighting is not limited to males. Sexual misconduct is not limited to males.

Most, not just some (as the ad declares) men will break up fights between kids and refrain from sexual abuse, etc.

I don't know really anything about any so-called "Men's Rights Movement," but I do know that the #MeToo Movement hasn't made some seismic shift in male behavior unless it is in the behavior of progressive males in Hollywood and journalism who thought they had a free pass because of their politics.

The "Women's Rights Movement" has led to an environment where boys are expected to act like girls and if they don't they are shamed or, even worse, drugged.

Yin & Yang is a universal concept. If we feminize all males (as is the goal of the "toxic masculinity" crowd) we devastate the balance of human nature.

We need feminity we need masculinity. We don't need toxic behavior of any sort.

Who defends bullying? Peterson certainly doesn't.

Hi, Finn. This is a friendly response. At this point in my life, I have no desire to argue with anyone.

I wasn't saying that Peterson defends bullying. I don't know if he does or not. I was merely asking PUNKEY if she (?) knew whether he did or not.

There are people in this country who defend bullying in the schools especially when the bullies are popular or enjoy high social status. You'd be surprised by how many people have no problem with bullying. For example, Matt Labash once wrote an article in Weekly Standard online in which he objected to the condemnation of bullying in the schools as evidence of the "wussification" of America. (Sorry I don't have a link.) A New York psychologist named Izzy Kalman says that the victims of bullying bring it upon themselves and that they are the problem, not the bullies. He absolves school bullies of any responsibility. A prominent former member of this forum (whom I shall not identify by username) says that bullying is a "social good" -- a really warped view. I could go on and on. For decades I've heard individuals disregard the pain caused by bullying with the insipid expression "Boys will be boys."

I have a personal interest in this issue. I was bullied verbally from elementary school through high school. When I was in my preteens, I was physically bullied. Once when I was in kindergarten, a boy in the neighborhood who was about my age hit my head with a lead pipe without provocation. The blow left a small permanent scar in my scalp that was visible for several decades.

I had a curious revelation of sorts about five years ago. My wife and our two daughters were visiting my older sister out of state. I had not gone with them. When my wife and daughters had returned, my wife told me that during their visit my sister told them about physical bullying I had experienced as a young boy less than nine years of age. On one (or more?) occasions I was physically assaulted by a gang of boys all of whom were bigger and stronger. (I guess one of them wasn't enough to do the job.) Once, I was pushed out of a school bus window. I don't know if the bus was moving or not because I had no memory of those violent incidents! Apparently they were of a traumatic nature; so, my mind erased all memory of them. I've always remembered the lead pipe, but I had no memories of the incidents my sister tearfully related to my wife and our daughters. For some reason I've not felt like asking her exactly what she told them.

This revelation has explained a curious phenomenon in my boyhood -- one that carried over into my years as a young adult. Once when I was a third-grader, my dad thought it would be a good idea if the son of one of his business partners showed me how to ride a bicycle. This boy, who was two grades ahead of me, was kind and friendly; but when I saw that he was bigger and stronger than I was, I began to feel nervous and wanted to get away from him as soon as I could. Decades later I would look back on this incident, and it wouldn't make sense to me. It seemed completely irrational. Indeed, whenever I encountered any classmate who was muscular, I'd feel apprehensive; and I'd be completely at ease around guys who were physically weaker than I was.

By the way, I no longer have this problem. As I have learned over the years, there are athletic guys who have high moral standards just as there are some who are jerks or worse. They're just human beings. My close friends include a former high-school football player who is younger and a former college football player who, when he was a high-school freshman, stood up to a bully who was even larger than he was when he saw him picking on another student. For years I've been working on a bodybuilding program with a personal trainer who has a high opinion of me even though I've never had an interest in sports. Of course, I feel the same way about him.

Sorry my response is so long. I just wanted to explain to you why I'm strongly opposed to bullying. It's personal. I know where you stand, Finn; so, I have no disagreement with you.

If you're a man who is losing his **** because of a Gillette ad.....You should smile more, you are so much prettier when you smile. 😘

How is this different than liberals losing their **** over Christmas songs, 1980s John Hugh's films, Grease (the musical), popular music, and even Beethoven symphonies?

Maybe feminist outrage is catching on....

Men's rights groups and feminists are more similar than either side would like to admit.

Since I was one of the smallest kids (and often the smallest boy) in school, until I shot up in 10th grade, I was frequently a target for bullies. It was no fun at all but I learned to cope: With a quick wit & a smartass mouth and my fists, coupled with a willingness to take punishment if necessary (I've had my nose broken three times).

The cliche about bullies is generally true. If you fight back, they back off. No kid should have to learn this lesson, but I don't regret being one who did.

I'm certainly not of the mind that bullying is a good thing, but it is, thanks to our evolution as a social species, a fairly prevalent thing. Yes, kids should be taught not to bully, but I also think kids should be taught how to respond to bullying. Assertiveness vs aggression.

I don't object to the Gillette ad because it criticizes some anti-social behaviors associated with men (rightly or wrongly - girls bully as much as boys; just in a different way) What I object to is the cynical pandering to misguided folks who believe that the majority of men and boys exhibit these behaviors. That is pure nonsense. We would be living in the fabled Wild Wild West if that were the case, and we know the West wasn't as wild as movies and novels suggest.

You really are insanely clueless. Especially given your pathetic attempt of a list to compare the two sides and their respective poor choices in what they sometimes choose to protest in the first place.

No one has ever been lynched or beaten to death from a over-the-top liberal reaction. NeoNazis and radical conservatives by their very aggressive stances... have killed gay and trangendered people; black men, women, and children; and countless other violent crimes that have happened over the past century or so... because when you dehumanize a niche population ...
as seen in the current event of "Students in MAGA hats taunt Native American veteran" ... what violence happens in the near future is... not mere coincidence. It's a self-propelling inevitability.

Good post, T.

This is factually incorrect. James Hodgekinson for example. There are any more examples. You can google for a list of politically motivated violence from liberal groups. There are plenty of videos of antifa, and professors being attacked by angry liberal students.

Left wing ideologues have their examples of right wing nastiness... right wing ideologues have their examples of left wing nastiness. It all depends on what political propaganda sites you read.

You only see what is in your ideological bubble.

James Hodgekinson, are you kidding me, you think a mentally disturbed violent man who shot and attempted to kill dozens of men is a liberal??? He's a CRIMINAL, with zero morality...like the assholes who hunt homosexuals and beat them senseless or beat them to death. Do you embrace those assholes as kindred spirits? If you actually think that liberals want people killed, then you are projecting your own foul thoughts. You, my silly friend, live in an ideological vacuum.

Ok so, liberals who go out to "shoot Republicans" are just "mentally disturbed" and Nazi's who shoot people aren't mentally disturbed... perhaps because they are Nazis?

You are making an ideological argument from a extremely partisan point of view.