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Why do people still believe in polygraphs?

 
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 12:29 pm
@maxdancona,
Both you and Thomas read more into my response than was intended. I wasn't referring to Dr. Ford when I made this statement:
Quote:
If someone is willing to take the test and is not particularly sophisticated with regard to how polygraphs work, their willingness indicates a certain sense of confidence that they can tell the truth and not be contradicted by analysis of the machine's results. It doesn't prove anything other than the subject's confidence.

I was discussing people who aren't psychologically sophisticated. I didn't mention Dr. Ford until the second paragraph and I said that her credibility was based more on her presentation and deportment in the hearing than on her having passed a lie detector test.
Quote:
Your narrative is so obsessed with her being a helpless victim that you seem to overlook that she is has a Doctorate in Psychology.

Where did I say she was a "helpless victim"? I only said that her testimony convinced many that she was telling the truth, or what she believed to be the truth.
Quote:
But your insistence in arguing that Dr. Ford is "not particularly sophisticated..." is ridiculous.

Again, I never said this. I've never even thought this. I knew she was a trained psychologist. Whether she "coached" anyone else has not been established but it doesn't have anything to do with my response.

So, why were you so wishy washy about Kavanaugh? As I said, I'd have been opposed to him even if he wasn't accused of sexual assault.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 12:36 pm
@hightor,
I mistyped my feelings about Kavanaugh, although they are more complex then just support or oppose.

- I am against Kavanaugh politically. If I were a Senator I would vote against him. I wanted my Senators to vote against him. I live in Massachusetts so this wasn't an issue.

- The process is pretty clear. The president nominates the candidate. The Senate confirms (or rejects) by vote in a political process. That happened, and I support it in-as-much as I believe that we should follow the process no matter who is in the White House or the Senate. (I do think we should have a filibuster again, but that is a completely different topic since you have to follow the rules as they are at the time.)

- I have no idea about whether Kavanaugh sexually assaulted Dr. Ford. There simply isn't enough evidence to know what actually happened. If I am "wishy-washy"... I think that given the lack of any real evidence this is justified.

In this thread, I am merely stating that I think the polygraph is meaningless nonsense. That doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the story.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 12:40 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
But what gave you the idea that Professor Blasey Ford, who teaches psychology at a reputable university , would be "not particularly sophisticated with regard to how polygraphs work"?

As I explained to Max, I was talking about a hypothetical subject, not Dr. Ford. The willingness of an unsophisticated person to undergo a polygraph examination doesn't prove innocence but it can be used as evidence of a person's sense of confidence and security.
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His scientifically justified distrust, that is.

But we don't know that. He might find polygraph results useful in some cases but, given his anger, resentment, and emotional stress, he might have feared a bad result which could look awfully bad in the popular mind.
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Oh, you really think they're not suggesting anything by it?

I think you and Max may be giving it more attention than it deserves. I think it's an incidental fact but I don't think it's being used to clinch an argument.
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The European papers I read, many of whom were fiercely critical of Kavanaugh, completely ignored it.

Well, as I said, it had nothing to do with my opposition to Kavanaugh.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 12:45 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
Well, as I said, it had nothing to do with my opposition to Kavanaugh.


You have mentioned Kavanaugh in every post you have made to this thread. The first post you made to this thread didn't even mention anything about polygraphs. I don't have a problem with that... but I do find it funny.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 01:00 pm
@maxdancona,
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You have mentioned Kavanaugh in every post you have made to this thread.

You have a problem with that? You wouldn't have started the thread were it not for the fact that the hearings put polygraphs in the news. He's not irrelevant to the subject under discussion.

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The first post you made to this thread didn't even mention anything about polygraphs. I don't have a problem with that... but I do find it funny.

Max, you've made several threads about being shunned by liberals on this board. Then you wrote that you were neither pro- nor anti-Kavanaugh. Given his solid ultra-conservative credentials I found this funny.

I happen to share your doubts about the polygraph as a lie detection device. But it can still be useful in a trial because the results can influence a jury, whether or not the results are backed up by hard science.

maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 01:04 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
But it can still be useful in a trial because the results can influence a jury, whether or not the results are backed up by hard science.


1. This is a very bad thing. If something that isn't backed up by science influences a jury, then justice isn't being done.

2. Polygraphs are not admisible as evidence in most trials in the US. The jury isn't allowed to hear about polygraph results for this very reason. No one wants juries to be influenced by non-scientific nonsense.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 01:25 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Quote:
The European papers I read, many of whom were fiercely critical of Kavanaugh, completely ignored it.

Well, as I said, it had nothing to do with my opposition to Kavanaugh.

Well, that's good. It had nothing to do with my opposition to him, either. But since the topic of this thread is polygraphs, not Kavanaugh, I have to ask: what were you hoping to discuss here?
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 01:31 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
I was neither pro-Kavanaugh or anti-Kavanaugh.

That seems pretty wishy washy. Even without the Blasey-Ford allegations the pro-business, anti-environment judge seemed pretty far to the right. Any moderate could find his views objectionable and oppose his nomination. What kind of justices do you want on the Supreme Court?


Well, I thought they were equally implausible.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 01:50 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Quote:
His scientifically justified distrust, that is.

But we don't know that.

Yes we do. Do I really need to cite you the peer-reviewed literature that polygraphs are bunk? Or can you search Google Scholar for it by yourself?

hightor wrote:
He might find polygraph results useful in some cases but, given his anger, resentment, and emotional stress, he might have feared a bad result which could look awfully bad in the popular mind.

He MIGHT --- or he might not. Either way, science would still justify his distrust in polygraphs, i.e., his distrust in polygraphs would still be scientifically justified. Just what are you hoping to contribute to the polygraph discussion by attempting to read Kavanaugh's mind?

hightor wrote:
But it can still be useful in a trial because the results can influence a jury, whether or not the results are backed up by hard science.

"Useful" for unscrupulous attack lawyers pushing junk science upon a jury of nonexpert citizens? Sure. But if by "useful" you mean useful for improving the quality of the legal process, what evidence do you have to back this up?
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 03:11 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
Someone like Kavanaugh, who may be more knowledgeable about polygraphs, may simply believe that the test represents a risk not worth taking. It doesn't prove anything other than his distrust of polygraph results.


seems he doesn't (or didn't) distrust them til it came to a situation he was personally connected to

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/brett-kavanaugh-polygraph-christine-blasey-ford_us_5bad52cbe4b0425e3c21f60a

this was in 2016

Quote:
In his opinion, Kavanaugh concluded that polygraphs are a valuable tool for the government to determine credibility and decide who should be allowed to handle classified information.

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As the Government notes, law enforcement agencies use polygraphs to test the credibility of witnesses and criminal defendants. Those agencies also use polygraphs to “screen applicants for security clearances so that they may be deemed suitable for work in critical law enforcement, defense, and intelligence collection roles.”

The Government has satisfactorily explained how polygraph examinations serve law enforcement purposes
.


from the same piece

Quote:
Blasey’s polygraph results do not prove that she is telling the truth about Kavanaugh. But her decision to subject herself to the invasive, anxiety-inducing procedure does show her effort to exhaust all available means of proving that she’s telling the truth.
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ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 03:14 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
His scientifically justified distrust, that is.


he didn't distrust them - see link above and from Snopes

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/brett-kavanaugh-employers-polygraph/

Quote:
In Kavanaugh’s opinion for the court, he noted that “the reports about polygraph use were compiled for law enforcement purposes,” because law enforcement agencies use them for functions such as “test[ing] the credibility of witnesses and criminal defendants” and “screen[ing] applicants for security clearances,” and therefore “the reports help ensure that law enforcement officers optimally use an important law enforcement tool.”
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 03:19 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
His scientifically justified distrust, that is.

But we don't know that. He might find polygraph results useful in some cases but, given his anger, resentment, and emotional stress, he might have feared a bad result which could look awfully bad in the popular mind.


that was my impression of it
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maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 03:31 pm
I am not here to defend Kavanaugh. The broader point is that people start with the conclusion and then go find facts to confirm it. The polygraph is a perfect example of this.

Polygraphs are scientifically invalid according to research. An intellectually honest person will accept that fact whether or not it supports their ideological side on the issue of the day. All this argument about whether Kavanaugh is a hypocrite, or a liar, or emotionally unstable or whatever is irrelevant. If EhBeth's partisan blogs find a quote where Kavanaugh praises polygraphs as infallable as the Word of God... it is still irrelevant.

If he is and does all of these things and worse... polygraphs are still scientifically invalid. It is a fact. Partisan propaganda from either side doesn't change facts.

Political ideology too often supersedes facts... and that is true on both sides of the political divide.

hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 03:50 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Just what are you hoping to contribute to the polygraph discussion by attempting to read Kavanaugh's mind?

I wasn't "hoping" for anything. Nor was I attempting to read anyone's mind. I feel that justified skepticism in the reliability of the polygraph as a "lie detector" is tending to obfuscate the actual usefulness of the device in real world conditions, some of which were mentioned in ehBeth's posts We don't know the content of Kavanaugh's mind. You seemed to imply that he rejected using the polygraph for scientific reasons and I suggested another possibility.
Quote:
But since the topic of this thread is polygraphs, not Kavanaugh, I have to ask: what were you hoping to discuss here?

I'd been reading the discussion and was puzzled at a statement by maxdancona so I decided to find out what he meant. I hope that doesn't break any site rules.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 03:54 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
I feel that justified skepticism in the reliability of the polygraph as a "lie detector" is tending to obfuscate the actual usefulness of the device in real world conditions


There is no "actual usefulness of the device in real world conditions" to determine if someone is lying or not.

That is the scientific fact. The rest is political ideology. My point is that ideology should not supersede the facts.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 04:05 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Polygraphs are scientifically invalid according to research.

They are not accurate at detecting lies.

Do you deny that they assess heart rate/blood pressure, respiration, and skin conductivity? Do you know for a fact that they inaccurately measure these responses? Are you saying that the measurements are invalid? What if we wanted to study the effect of mindfulness training or a new sedative — an experiment might be devised where a subject's autonomic arousal is tested by a polygraph. Are you saying it would be scientifically invalid to compare the results in double-blind testing? Mind you, the researchers here are not attempting to measure deception.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 04:09 pm
@hightor,
I don't get your point.

They are not accurate in detecting lies.

Sure.... if polygraphs are worthwhile for something else, and this can be proven scientifically, I am all for it. Maybe they can cure warts or erectile dysfunction, I don't know. Show me the research, and I am all for it. If there is research that shows that polygraphs might cure male pattern baldness, I will jump to be part of the follow up study.

But I do know, from scientific research, that they are not accurate in detecting lies.


hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 04:39 pm
@maxdancona,
Well, you asked why do people still believe in polygraphs, not "lie detectors". I'm suggesting that people believe in them because they measure body responses which are relatively easy to graph. If the machines could be shown to inaccurately assess responses I believe that would be common knowledge. So yes, their results are believable. Imputing deception by interpreting the results is another case entirely.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 04:41 pm
@hightor,
Sorry if I wasn't clear... but I think you understood what I meant just fine. If I ever have a need for a machine to tell me if someone is sweating or not, I will know where to turn. Maybe I could have worded my original post better. If your argument is that a polygraph is accurate at detecting someone's pulse, I concede the point.

If the goal is to tell whether someone is being deceptive or not, the polygraph is useless.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 05:58 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
If the goal is to tell whether someone is being deceptive or not, the polygraph is useless.

What if the goal is precisely to find people who can "pass" a polygraph exam?

What if the goal is to appear as someone who is unfazed by submitting to a polygraph test?

In the real world, where significant numbers of people believe in the lie detection ability of a nearly 100 year old device, clever people will "game the system", using people's gullibility to their advantage.

Why do people believe that the polygraph is an accurate test for deception? Because they have been lied to. And because they want to believe that the world is ordered and fair and that human ingenuity will somehow make up for human perversity.
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