Short shorts too school

It's often a sexist policy, a holdover from the 50s.

There should be some standards of dress that are set by the moral standards of the local community. Given that there are gender differences in fashion, I don't know if any attempt to make them "equal" are possible in any logical way.

This is a matter of arguing over where the line should be set... a matter of degree. Does anyone believe that students should be allowed to wear swim suits to school?


Is there anyone who believes there should be no rules? In this age where everything is sexist... I don't see how school administrators can win. I do believe that schools are part of local communities and should be run as such.

I have no problem with rules. The OP specifically asked about girls. It's been my experience these rules are created only with girls' dressing habits in mind, or mainly with their habits in mind. Do I think kids should wear PJs or swimsuits? Of course not. But I also think when it's a rule only enforced on one side (or more on one side), then it's a problem. And an explanation of "it distracts the boys" is really not good enough as a reason.

This is from the Student Handbook of Cambridge Rindge and Latin School. This is the public high school my sons attended. This is from Cambridge, MA.... often called "The People's Republic of Cambridge" (one of the most liberal places in the US).



Even very liberal communities have standards when it comes to clothing in high school.

Reality is reality.

Girls are different than boys. They are culturally different. They are physically different. And they are emotionally different. People seem to want to erase these facts in the name of "equality"... but sorry. You can't change reality.

The blatant display of sexuality as expressed through clothing happens in adolescent girls. It doesn't happen (in the same way) in adolescent boys. There is a line where this becomes inappropriate ... and even progressive school districts understand this.

You can word the rules in any way you want to make it sound equal. The problem still is that adolescent girls are dressing in an inappropriate way. I won't argue that this isn't a normal part of adolescence. But it still something where school administrators need to draw a line. (There are ways that adolescent boys act inappropriately too, and schools are addressing this as well. That isn't the topic of this thread; girls and boys are different.)

Are you willing to admit the problem? It seems like school administrators are caught in a difficult situation.

So who defines "inappropriate"? That is where school administrators have a problem.

Not Safe -> inappropriate. That is easy. You have to wear shoes, you have to wear protective equipment in certain classes, I'd even say you have to wear appropriate clothes in cold weather. Everything else is a judgment call and that is where administrators get into trouble. What is "inappropriate"? Swimwear? Sure. Sleepwear? Sure, although schools have "pajama" days all the time. Clothes that are generally appropriate for everyday wear outside of school should be appropriate in school. It's pretty silly that shorts that I see people wearing at the grocery store without drawing any comments are banned in schools. If it is up to the administrator's opinion, students are going to be whipsawed between average administrators and those with unusual standards. A "blatant display of sexuality" is in the eye of the beholder. I don't see a lot of what I would consider blatant displays and I have three teenagers whose friends I see regularly. Maybe it is just where I live or maybe what I consider and a blatant display, but a single administrator who has unusual standards can make life hell at a school. This pops up in the news here a few times a year and typically I'm with the student. I look at what they are wearing and scratch my head about why anyone saw a problem. I'm sure a school girls tennis match would drive some administrators to distraction, but most would be fine. It seems hypocritical to kick students out of class for shorts longer than what the cheerleaders wear. Perhaps you need limit sample training. Teachers and administrators would go to training where students wearing various outfits across the spectrum appear (pre-evaluated by committee) and they have to decide yes or no, then get graded on it.

There are several problems with your suggestion Engineer. You are ignoring the nature of adolescence and of education; how does what you suggest prepare students for the working world where there will be standards?

But let me focus on the idea of community. The inability to understand community is a big reason that for all the media time that progressive ideas yet, they fail to get very much traction politically. You are basically sitting where your educated white Collar job puts you, and dictating policies for any general educational setting in any local community.

It is interesting that most progressives will draw a line (you seem to an exception). I already posted the excerpt from the Cambridge MA Student Handbook (an exceeding liberal public school district) that is willing to draw a line about what is offensive that includes "bare midriffs".

What is wrong with letting these local school districts deal with these issues according to their community standards? What we have is a national political movement using the national press. People who violate some moral philosophy set by educated White people in the upper-middle class suburbs of Blue states are publicly shamed in the national press. This is part of the reason that Democrats lose elections.

Is this really a good thing?

You ask who defines what is inappropriate? I think that should be the local community. There is a subjective line that needs to be drawn by each local community... and each community will be different. Enforcing some homogeneous standard through national shaming in the press and social media somehow seems unhelpful.

Actually, I'm suggesting there be real standards instead of vague recommendations. I agree that local communities should establish the standard. I also think that schools must protect students from one off administrators who are deviant from local standards. I live in a beach community. There are very few restaurants in town where flip flops and board shorts are a problem. Showing some collarbone here? No problem. The number of inches of thigh on display? Most don't care. At the same time, this is part of the Bible Belt and there are some people who flip out at the sight of a spaghetti strap. So let the local school board with parental input create a set of limit samples. Pictures of students that are on the edge of acceptable. That is a standard industry policy where people visually inspect things, create pictures of what is on the edge of passing for reference. This prevents an administrator from fixating on a student's large chest even if she is wearing perfectly acceptable clothing but also offers administrators who are faithfully following the rules cover. It also offers students a standard to compare themselves to and parents a guide for helping their students (and pushing back ahead of time if they disagree with the standards). One person's "blatant display of sexuality" is another person's comfortable outfit. That administrators have complete leeway and students have no recourse is most of the problem.

I agree with that Engineer. School administrators should be accountable to the local community. They should not be accountable to the national press or social media. There is a difference there.

I find the prevalence of social media shaming (on a national level) to be quite troubling. These issues are subjective and often complex. The local nature of these issues don't get covered in any depth. You don't hear both sides, instead these stories become political attacks to support a political narrative even when the narrative has nothing to do with the local community.

swim classes are going to be cancelled?

__


I swim at a local middle school on weekends. As we leave the building we see the clothing rules. They're pretty simple. No t-shirts with logos. No gang colours.

Talked to a local parent. The logo thing came about as kids were wearing NWA t's and the like. Instead of picking and choosing, the parent/teacher group decided to just go with no logos. Plain t's are the answer. No words, no logos, no symbols. Plain t's. Makes it pretty easy for everyone. The office has a stash of plain black t's for kids who show up with logos.

this holdover attitude from the 1950's really has to die

really quite silly when you think of it

I have cousins with crazy long arms. their shorts would have to be really long.

Other cousins would be showing their underwear.

Hmmmm EhBeth. Are you really saying that you wouldn't have an issue with any clothing choices from adolescents in a school (other than slogans)? This no-rules policy seems a little extreme... I don't think it works in the real world.

I am curious about your local middle school. The Student Handbook for most schools are available online, it would be interesting to see if they have a section on inappropriate clothing... most schools do.

I am assuming you live in a fairly affluent suburb in a "blue" state, or at least in a district that voted strongly for Hillary. I may be wrong; my point still applies. You are in a certain demographic and you live in one community. Your values hopefully are perfectly consistent with the community in which you live. That doesn't that your values should apply everywhere.

There are two problems here. First is the failure to understand the issues that arise in schools that need to provide education to adolescents. The second is the belief that the values of middle-class liberal White people are a one size fits all solution for all communities.

In the early 1970s aged 19 I got a job with a UK government department (The Ordnance Survey) which was the government mapping agency. Teams of surveyors were based in cities around the country and they would go out and put new roads, buildings, etc, in their region, on the map. They had a surveying device which had a telescope in it. One day we had to do a "traverse" (a surveying term) which took us past the sports field of a girls school. Netball, hockey, etc. Short shorts. Great was the glee of these older (30s to 50s) guys to peep through the scope at the girl's legs. One of the keenest was a pillar of the local Baptist church, where he played the organ, and led the youth group (yes, I know). I found myself losing respect for him especially, but most of the surveyors. Only one, apart from me, was not interested in playing at Peeping Tom. So there may be good protective reasons for the dress code.

What decade are you from EhBeth? Ironically, a lot of the people who are pushing the narrative that everything is sexist are White women from the 1950s.

The question here is what is the best way to provide a good education for adolescents. If a dress code will help (and there is evidence to support this)... would you still oppose it just on principle?

I think policy should be made on facts, not on political ideology.

That, in itself, is an ideological statement.

I am a fact-based liberal. I think the facts matter. And I think it is a good thing to question your own beliefs and to consider both sides of any story. I have no problem with that being my ideology.

This is the problem... people want a simple solution that fits a simple narrative. If the story is "Backwards male rural administrator in red state does something sexist", you buy the story because it fits so well with what you believe. The realities of the local community don't matter. What the administrator actually is trying to do doesn't matter. Everyone one in the story fits the script. The administrator is backwards and domineering. The student is a victim, a well-behaved students who never disrupts.

You live for outrage, and the media gives you outrage. The facts don't matter. The complexities of real stories and real issues are boiled down to fit your simplistic scripts. And anyone who questioned is publicly shamed in national news and social media.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe if you were involved in this local situation and understood the issues rather than responding to ginned up outrage from a Facebook post you would have a different opinion.

I am tired of liberal outrage. It doesn't help anything.

Employing that term is itself an ideological position. The term is what Ancient Greek rhetoricians would have called an “exonym”: a term for another group, which signals that the speaker does not belong to it.

Exactly