605
   

NeoPets Riddles (Lenny Conundrums) and Answers Here

 
 
zappBrannigan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 09:52 am
I feel so much better now.
My answer matched stapel (who's work is usually flawless), musicologist, and Gigi82 (not to mention others.

Thanks for verifying this for me.
I just didn't want to post the actual answer, so as not to rob others of the joy of solving it.

I also got 357.7...., which rounds up to 358.
0 Replies
 
edstock
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 12:50 pm
Another alternative route to calculating the answer. This uses 3 pentagon formulas found at http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Pentagon.html.

A (area) = (1/4) * (a^2) * sqrt(25 + 10 * sqrt(5))
R (circumradius) = (1/10) * a * sqrt(50 + 10 * sqrt(5))
r (inradius) = (1/10) * a * sqrt(25 + 10 * sqrt(5))

where a is the length of a side of the pentagon.

Substituting 800 for A in the first equation, we get a = 21.563562. Using this value, we get R = 18.343062 and r = 14.839849.

Now, my wife pointed out the key fact to me last night, which is that if you reflect the green triangle inward, then the base is still one side of the pentagon, and the opposite vertex touches the opposite vertex of the pentagon. Then the area of the triangle is (1/2) * a * (r + R).

Both the conclusion about the geometry and the formula for calculating the area of the triangle need a bit of justification.

To show that the vertex of the reflected triangle is coincident with the vertex of the pentagon, we look at the angles involved. The interior angles of the pentagon are 108 degrees. Then the base angles of the triangle are 180 - 108 = 72 degrees (sum of angles making up a straight line is 180 degrees) and the top angle of the triangle is 180 - 72 - 72 = 36 degrees (sum of angles of a triangle is 180 degrees).

To allow talking about it, I'm going to name the edges of the pentagon as a, b, c, d, and e, starting with the edge shared with the green triangle and proceeding clockwise. I'm going to name the side of the triangle that is connected at the vertex shared by a and b as s.

When we reflect the triangle, the base angle is still 72 degrees and the angle between the side of the triangle and the adjacent edge of the pentagon is 108 - 72 = 36 degrees. (This is the angle between b and the reflected s, or s'). Now, b along with the extensions of c and s', forms a triangle, call it T. (So far, we don't assume that the vertices of the triangle and pentagon match.) Call the edges of this new triangle b, c" and s". Now the angle between b and s" = 36 degrees (same as the angle between b and s'), while the angle between b and c" is 108 degrees (same as the angle between b and c - an interior angle of the pentagon), so the third angle of T must be 180 - 108 - 36 = 36 degrees. Since two angles of the triangle are the same, the opposite edges must be the same. The opposite edges are b and c", so the length of b = the length of c". But the length of c = the length of b, so c" = c. This puts the vertex of T at the vertex shared by c and d, causing the extension of s' to intersect that vertex as well. By symmetry of our reflected isosceles triangle (call it S), the extension of the other side of S must intersect that vertex and since the vertex of S is at the intersection of those two sides, the vertex of S is at the vertex of the pentagon.

Now the area of the triangle: The distance from the center of an edge of a pentagon to the opposite vertex will be the sum of the inradius (distance from the edge to the center of the inscribed circle - since the inscribed circle touches at the center of the edge) plus the circumradius (distance from the vertex to the center of the circumscribed circle) or r + R. For any regular polygon, the centers of the inscribed and circumscribed circles will be the same and since the radii of the circles bisect the appropriate angle or side, the center will lie along the line from a vertex of the pentagon to the center of the opposite edge. So we just apply the formula for the area of a triangle: (1/2) * base * height, where a is the base and (r + R) is the height.
0 Replies
 
bookworm514
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 08:49 pm
edstock wrote:
Another alternative route to calculating the answer. This uses 3 pentagon formulas found at http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Pentagon.html.

A (area) = (1/4) * (a^2) * sqrt(25 + 10 * sqrt(5))
R (circumradius) = (1/10) * a * sqrt(50 + 10 * sqrt(5))
r (inradius) = (1/10) * a * sqrt(25 + 10 * sqrt(5))

where a is the length of a side of the pentagon.

Substituting 800 for A in the first equation, we get a = 21.563562. Using this value, we get R = 18.343062 and r = 14.839849.

Now, my wife pointed out the key fact to me last night, which is that if you reflect the green triangle inward, then the base is still one side of the pentagon, and the opposite vertex touches the opposite vertex of the pentagon. Then the area of the triangle is (1/2) * a * (r + R).

Both the conclusion about the geometry and the formula for calculating the area of the triangle need a bit of justification.

To show that the vertex of the reflected triangle is coincident with the vertex of the pentagon, we look at the angles involved. The interior angles of the pentagon are 108 degrees. Then the base angles of the triangle are 180 - 108 = 72 degrees (sum of angles making up a straight line is 180 degrees) and the top angle of the triangle is 180 - 72 - 72 = 36 degrees (sum of angles of a triangle is 180 degrees).

To allow talking about it, I'm going to name the edges of the pentagon as a, b, c, d, and e, starting with the edge shared with the green triangle and proceeding clockwise. I'm going to name the side of the triangle that is connected at the vertex shared by a and b as s.

When we reflect the triangle, the base angle is still 72 degrees and the angle between the side of the triangle and the adjacent edge of the pentagon is 108 - 72 = 36 degrees. (This is the angle between b and the reflected s, or s'). Now, b along with the extensions of c and s', forms a triangle, call it T. (So far, we don't assume that the vertices of the triangle and pentagon match.) Call the edges of this new triangle b, c" and s". Now the angle between b and s" = 36 degrees (same as the angle between b and s'), while the angle between b and c" is 108 degrees (same as the angle between b and c - an interior angle of the pentagon), so the third angle of T must be 180 - 108 - 36 = 36 degrees. Since two angles of the triangle are the same, the opposite edges must be the same. The opposite edges are b and c", so the length of b = the length of c". But the length of c = the length of b, so c" = c. This puts the vertex of T at the vertex shared by c and d, causing the extension of s' to intersect that vertex as well. By symmetry of our reflected isosceles triangle (call it S), the extension of the other side of S must intersect that vertex and since the vertex of S is at the intersection of those two sides, the vertex of S is at the vertex of the pentagon.

Now the area of the triangle: The distance from the center of an edge of a pentagon to the opposite vertex will be the sum of the inradius (distance from the edge to the center of the inscribed circle - since the inscribed circle touches at the center of the edge) plus the circumradius (distance from the vertex to the center of the circumscribed circle) or r + R. For any regular polygon, the centers of the inscribed and circumscribed circles will be the same and since the radii of the circles bisect the appropriate angle or side, the center will lie along the line from a vertex of the pentagon to the center of the opposite edge. So we just apply the formula for the area of a triangle: (1/2) * base * height, where a is the base and (r + R) is the height.


nice work..it explained a lot to me...gawd..this forum is good mainly cuz the ppl here are so thorough with it..=D next time, i might type my work too..i would like to help but then the time zones are too much..
0 Replies
 
CuTiELoOoLa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Dec, 2007 11:32 pm
Think Logically ..!
WeLL I'm not sure if its a right answer or not ..but pay attention people ..Look the triangle looks like half the polygon ..therefore divide 800 by 2 ..you'll get 400 ! Easy as that ..it's a game not a confusing question .. keep it simple.
0 Replies
 
stapel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 06:50 am
bookworm514 wrote:
next time, i might type my work too..i would like to help but then the time zones are too much..

Time zones prevent your keyboard from functioning...? Shocked

CuTiELoOoLa wrote:
WeLL I'm not sure if its a right answer or not ..but pay....

You're right: your answer is wrong. :wink:

Note: Once you get into high school and take some geometry, you'll learn about geometrical formulas and logic; you'll learn that one should never assume anything from a picture, and that, while first-blush guesses or estimates might be helpful checks on solutions (400 is kind of close to 358, so you're probably in the ballpark), they do not replace the actual solution, nor are they generally any more than "close-ish" to the valid answer. Idea

Also, once you've played this game for a few weeks, you'll learn that the proposed explanations for this round are not at all unusually difficult in the context of this game. Embarrassed

CuTiELoOoLa wrote:
...it's a game....keep it simple.

Tell Neopets that! Laughing

Eliz.
0 Replies
 
MariaWB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 02:03 pm
Well, I'm confused!

I'm bad at matrh as it is, and when it's all in english - well, let's just say that it doesn't exactly help!

Not ONE of your ways of finding the answer has made sense to me, soooooo I'm just skipping this one..

Good luck to you all. Can't wait to see who's right! =)
0 Replies
 
aussie115
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Dec, 2007 04:26 pm
as far as the math problems involved in this type of game, this is one of the easier ones....

anyways....i read most of the methods described previously...and i ultimately decided to forge my own path, and my answer matched up with alot of the people with the better (and correct) methods.

as far as calculating the area of the pentagon, i did have to look the formula up, because its not something that is often used, at least not for me...

moving on...i calculated the area using the wikipedia formula for a regular pentagon, and found the length of a side. Then moving to the triangle i used the whole supplementary angles add up to 180 rule, and calculated the two congruent angles at the base of the triangles (and if you dont know the value of the sum of a regular pentagons angles, thats something that can be googled also).

then i figured that the height of the triangle bisects the base of the triangle, so i split the base value in half. then, using basic trig (i.e. sohcahtoa) i used the half part of the base and one of the base angles in this formula:

tan(base angle)= height/half of the base

and my answer matched one of the more popular answers on here. so i just thought i'd supply a slightly simpler method
0 Replies
 
ionave
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2007 11:05 pm
=o
yup. i got the same answer, but with a lot less work...

all I did was set 1.72x^2 = 800, solved for x, ruling out the neg, and I plugged that value, along with the interior angle of the isosceles tri. into the equation : s^2tan(a)/4, and I got the answer...
0 Replies
 
mikasa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2007 07:12 am
Heh heh, so much maths! I just drew the shape in autocad and it tells you the areas of all the sections :p
0 Replies
 
stapel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2007 08:09 am
ionave wrote:
all I did was set 1.72x^2 = 800, solved for x....

Why? What was your reasoning or justification? (It has customarily appeared to be required not only that one hand out the answer, but that one prove that one is handing out the prize-winning answer.) Rolling Eyes

mikasa wrote:
I just drew the shape in autocad and it tells you the areas of all the sections

Did you use a hand-drawn picture? Did you use the Neopets picture, and assume that it was drawn accurately? It should be noted that either of these avenues can lead to errors of sufficient size as to invalidate the values obtained. Shocked

Eliz.
0 Replies
 
tubbythesuperhippo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2007 05:06 pm
-phew-
this is the answer i got: 358

after seeing it multiply times on this board, i figure I'm right. Thanks for confirming my answer! I'll definitely be stopping by next round!
0 Replies
 
mikasa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2007 06:00 pm
stapel wrote:

mikasa wrote:
I just drew the shape in autocad and it tells you the areas of all the sections

Did you use a hand-drawn picture? Did you use the Neopets picture, and assume that it was drawn accurately? It should be noted that either of these avenues can lead to errors of sufficient size as to invalidate the values obtained. Shocked


No, you can draw a regular pentagon with an area of exactly 800 in autocad no problem. Sadly I'm not sure if there's a free opensource equivalent package as a help for all you non-maths people in geometry problems (I got my copy from work).
0 Replies
 
ionave
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2007 11:17 pm
hehehe
well.

I pretty much assumed that the pentagon was a regular pentagon, which made me assume that neopets gave me a regular pentagram

umm

the area of a pentagon is given by the formula

1.72 x^2

x = the side length of a regular pentagon

and then I plugged this into the formula for an isosceles triangle, and I know through geometry proofs I did 2 years ago that this triangle is isosceles, (If the pentagon is regular). Using exterior angles and stuff, I ended up getting the measure of a base angle in the isosceles triangle as 72 degrees, so I plug that into the isosceles triangle area formula:

tan(angle) * x^2 / 4

and.... that gave me the answer 358 when I rounded up =o

Leave it to the workings of my 14 year old brain to solve the problem.
0 Replies
 
stapel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 06:43 am
mikasa wrote:
I'm not sure if there's a free opensource equivalent package as a help for all you non-maths people in geometry problems....

Um, I suspect a lot of "maths people" (such as myself) don't have the $3500 for the AutoCAD package, either. Shocked

ionave wrote:
the area of a pentagon is given by the formula 1.72 x^2

x = the side length of a regular pentagon

No. The area A of a regular pentagon with side length x is given by:

. . . . .A = (1/4) sqrt[25 + 10sqrt[5]] x^2

You used an approximation. Fortunately, within this particular computation, that approximation did not cause too large a round-off error within the calculations, and the rounded value should still work. But this success should not be assumed for all cases!

Eliz.
0 Replies
 
zappBrannigan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 12:28 pm
Thanks for the help folks.
I submitted my answer right after my first posting, because I didn't see any flaws in my reasoning, and because I tried solving two different ways.

I already had the avvie and a trophy, but I think I got upgraded to silver now.

Quote:
Congratulations! You have guessed correctly in the Lenny Conundrum game (round 242). You have won 564 NP!

Because you were in the first 250 to guess correctly, you also have been awarded a Lucky Stars, and receive a trophy and the Lenny Conundrum avatar!


Thanks again!
0 Replies
 
meloedy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 04:48 pm
The new one's out.
0 Replies
 
meloedy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 04:48 pm
The following words appear in a pattern somewhere in Neopia:

WORLD

FAERIE

THIRD

TIRED

LUPE

What is the next word in the list? Submit your answer as only one word. If there is any additional information in your answer, it will be disqualified. No exceptions.
0 Replies
 
mellie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 04:55 pm
Check the world events page. It has all the words on the list
0 Replies
 
Meepit
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 04:55 pm
I put Balthazar, but im not sure.
0 Replies
 
mellie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2007 04:56 pm
One word is used for each of the sections.

http://www.neopets.com/worldevents.phtml
0 Replies
 
 

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