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American press: shameless comment on France and Belgium

 
 
steissd
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 04:46 am
And I am sure that Belgium will be the last place [/color]Mr. Sharon will be willing to visit when he becomes just a private person.
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steissd
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 04:52 am
Suing Mr. Sharon for crimes of the Lebanese Christian militias is the same absurdity as to sue Sir Neville Chamberlain for Nazi atrocities in Czechoslovakia: he knew that Nazis were going to occupy the Sudeten, and he had a very good idea on what the Nazi regime was in the human rights aspect, and he did not do anything to prevent it, in spite of UK's being an ally of Czechs.
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nimh
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 06:47 am
steissd wrote:
I am sorry, but without NATO's military victory no change of power in Yugoslavia would ever occur. Therefore, Mr. Milosevic would remain at power position, and it does not seem to me likely that he would extradit himself to the ICC.


True, and to some extent the success of the newly institutionalised independent international justice will still rely on the support of diplomatic and military pressure by countries that support it.

But still, even Milosevic's trial is fundamentally different from earlier examples of victors' justice like at Nuremberg. There were no US or UN soldiers that came to get him. He was extradited by an independent government to an independent court: that's two wholly new elements in the equation.

That, even if the US did bring Milosevic down from power in war, this was in no way a self-evident course of events will have been clear by the fierce Serbian political debate about the Q; he was in the end extradited against the explicit wish of Yugoslav President Kostunica.

And it's not just Milosevic, of course, even in the context of the ICYT. Serbia voluntarily extradited military men and politicians who had stayed on after Milosevic's fall, whose fall was not enforced by the war. And no US troops ever attacked Croatia - nevertheless they have surrendered some high-profile figures to the Court, popular heroes even.

This is, in that respect, a new age, in which an international concept of enforcing laws on crimes against humanity, genocide etc can be upheld to anyone, not just those who lost the war. In that sense the 'inviolability of national borders' luckily will never be the same again. Leaving aside the merits of the Sharon case, the Belgian law is yet another example of how those who commit great human rights crimes can no longer ever rely on getting a comfortable and respected retirement.
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steissd
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 06:59 am
What did you expect, Nimh from the war-torn Serbia? She needed credits and financial aid, and this was the price for betrayal of the man that many of Serbs consider being a national hero (I am not an admirer of Mr. Milosevic, but I tried to be empathic toward the Serbs). Besides this, Serbs realized that international pressure may be not only economical...
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nimh
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 06:59 am
steissd wrote:
Suing Mr. Sharon for crimes of the Lebanese Christian militias is the same absurdity as to sue Sir Neville Chamberlain for Nazi atrocities in Czechoslovakia: he knew that Nazis were going to occupy the Sudeten, and he had a very good idea on what the Nazi regime was in the human rights aspect, and he did not do anything to prevent it, in spite of UK's being an ally of Czechs.


Wasn't Mr Sharon at the time commanding an army occupying the territory where the slaughter took place?

If so, isn't it more like - say - sueing Nazi Germany's military commander for standing by and allowing local fascist militias to slaughter the Jews in a city that was under his effective military control?
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steissd
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 07:06 am
Mr. Sharon was not in operative command of the forces, he was a civilian, a minister in the Israeli government. If he did not become the PM of Israel, no one would sue him right now: the former Israeli general Rafael Ethan was the Chief of Staff in 1982, and no one sues him; well, he has left active political activities. No one sues the Lebanese Maronite leaders either, and some of them were directly involved in massacre. This is just a plot aimed to compromising the Israeli government in the Western European public opinion.
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nimh
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 07:11 am
steissd wrote:
What did you expect, Nimh from the war-torn Serbia? She needed credits and financial aid, and this was the price for betrayal of the man that many of Serbs consider being a national hero (I am not an admirer of Mr. Milosevic, but I tried to be empathic toward the Serbs). Besides this, Serbs realized that international pressure may be not only economical...


Well, I was replying to where you wrote that "war crimes tribunals are held after the military victory of one side against another (e.g., Nuremberg Trial)", and that therefore, the Belgian law was ludicrous.

The tumultuous and often pained surrender of said-to-be national military heroes by the Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian governments - two out of three of which governments had not lost any war against the intenational forces represented by the ICC - shows that war crimes tribunals have entered a wholly new phase.

One in which the surmise of the Belgian law - that an outside force has the right to take on a judging role when it comes to ensuring no crime against humanity goes unpunished - itself is absolutely not far-fetched.

But, like I said, I personally hope that the Belgian law will be made redundant as soon as possible by an effective functioning of the ICC, b/c of course its solution - which has the judges of one country sentencing suspects from another - is far from perfect - imagine Syria adopting a law like that and prosecuting Sharon. But I don't see why the ICC shouldn't prosecute Sharon after his term is over - and judge him innocent, if you are right, or guilty, if you're not.
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steissd
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 07:12 am
About Nazis: they were not passive spectators of massacres of Jews performed by the local anti-Semites. The latter were usually organized in the SS outfits, like the Ukrainian SS-divisions "Nachtigal" and "Roland" (that were under command of German citizens), or served in Einsatzgruppen , like this of the SS-Standartenfuehrer Dr. Otto Olendorff. And the Nazi officials that commanded the "native" SS outfits, surely, were the war criminals.
The Lebanese militias were not under operative command of IDF, they did not receive orders from the Israeli officers, so your attempt to find similarity in actions of IDF and SS, are absolutely inaccurate.
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nimh
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 07:17 am
steissd wrote:
Mr. Sharon was not in operative command of the forces, he was a civilian, a minister in the Israeli government.


Minister of what? If he was minister of defence, he was in political command of the army's doings.

You are right about the arbitrariness of Sharon, and not somebody else, being the accused person. But then the Belgian court does nothing but take the cases it is presented with into consideration. Anyone is free to bring a case against Rafael Ethan, or the Maronite leaders, to its attention as well.

This is not "a plot aimed to compromising the Israeli government" as the Belgian courts have proven themselves to be independent in their doings in this matter (the Belgian government is reported, in news stories about this latest court decision, to actually be highly embarassed and upset about it).
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nimh
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 07:24 am
steissd wrote:
About Nazis: they were not passive spectators of massacres of Jews performed by the local anti-Semites. The latter were usually organized in the SS outfits, [..] so your attempt to find similarity in actions of IDF and SS, are absolutely inaccurate.


Well, I didn't start the Nazi-era comparisons. And though you are right in an overwhelming number of WW2 cases, there are also plenty of examples of the case I outlined. Local militias slaughtering Jews with a vengeance that had even the newly arrived German troops taken aback a bit. I read it about Lithuania, for example. And of course in such cases those local militias should be taken to court (as well), I'm not saying they shouldn't. But shouldnt the commanders of those German troops in question be prosecuted too? For letting it happen even when they were in military control of the situation?

Take another example, to get away from the Nazi parallels - if Romanian skinheads beat up the local Roma and torch their village while the local police chief watches and leaves them to it, isn't there a case for prosecuting that police chief, too? That's the case those charging Sharon are making, I believe. I don't see either why this would be ridiculous or why it should necessarily be some anti-Israeli plot.
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steissd
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 07:53 am
The main function of the local police in any country is to protect citizens. If local policemen in Romania did not do this, when the Gypsies were attacked by racists, they committed a crime themselves. IDF was not supposed to protect anyone in the refugee camps, its troops remained outside the latter.
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frolic
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 08:25 am
Steissd

Some confusing events.

On 18 June 2001, 23 survivors of the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres lodged a case in Belgium accusing Ariel Sharon, former Israeli defense minister and Israel's current prime minister, Commandant Brigadier General Amos Yaron, Commandant Major General Drori, Elias Hobeika and other Lebanese Phalangist militia leaders with war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide related to the massacres committed between 16-18 September 1982 in two refugee camps in Beirut.

Six months later the butcher of Beirut (Falangist Elias Hobeika) was blown up by a carbomb(Mossad?) after he announced he would testify at Brussels that he was just obeying Sharon's orders. Why would anyone want to carbomb former Lebanese Phalangist militia leader and government minister Elie Hobeika in Beirut-less than two days after he agreed to give evidence against Sharon in a Belgian court?
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 10:23 am
steissd

('Gypsies' is a racist term. Those persons are either Romas or Sintis and no operetta clowns!)

Found this Israelian article:


Quote:
Put Sharon on trial. Here.
By David Forman, Ha'aretz, 13 February 2003

Israel has always been proud of the concept "purity of arms." The principle allowed us to build a morally defensive shield against the corrupting influence of all wars, even morally imperative wars such as the one against terror. It is difficult to tell which kind of war makes it more difficult to maintain this sublime idea - conventional wars against other countries, or the unconventional war in which Israel is now entangled with the Palestinian Authority.

A few days ago, Kamala Abu Sa'id, the 65-year-old stepmother of a wanted man, was killed during the demolition of her home in Gaza by Israeli soldiers. I emphasize the demolition was done by Israeli soldiers, since by saying it was done by the IDF would take away the personal nature of that action, as well as hundreds of similar actions conducted in recent months by armed Israeli soldiers. It was said that there was a search of the house before the demolition, but it turns out that it was not sufficiently thorough because apparently nobody cared enough. Thus, innocent Palestinians are killed day after day without anyone being held accountable.

The principle of "purity of arms" has been replaced by a philosophy of "superficial concern for non-combatants." And although it is possible to understand the emotional reaction of a soldier to the death of a comrade, especially during battle, it is the duty of military discipline to restrain the natural instinct for revenge. The reason the field commanders confirm with a nod of the head the deviation from that norm is because of the backing for it from the highest levels of the army, leading directly to the prime minister himself.

As someone who was a simple soldier in the war in Lebanon, it is clear to me that the collapse of the military ethic, including purity of arms, officially began during that war, in the refugee camps of Sabra and Chatilla, when Ariel Sharon was defense minister. For Sharon, the contempt for the ethical dimension of warfare began much earlier, in Gaza and Kibyeh, but then his influence and methods were felt only at the platoon level. In the Lebanon War, as defense minister, his influence was universal. But the contempt he demonstrated then toward purity of arms took its own vengeance on him and he was fired from that job.

Twenty years have passed and Sharon is again in a position of power from which he can set the standards for Israeli fighting. Apparently, what guided Sharon during his military career and reached its shameful climax at Sabra and Chatilla, now dictates the way the IDF conducts its war against terror - with scorn for the moral standards at the heart of the Israeli Army since its establishment. And thus we are every day witness to the indiscriminate killing of Palestinian civilians: not those caught in a cross-fire, but people like that 65-year-old woman.

It's possible that for the prime minister, "all is fair in love and war." We have a Jewish answer to that: "Justice, justice, shall though pursue" (Deuteronomy, XVI:20). The rabbis say that the word justice appears twice to say that a just cause must be achieved through just means. That biblical commandment is the earliest form of the IDF's principle of purity of arms.

The world community wants to put Sharon on trial for war crimes because of his role in the Sabra and Chatilla massacres, but we are the ones who should put him on trial, for desecrating the principles of the IDF, which were meant to prevent that horror then, and for the ongoing killing of the innocent now. Due to his subterfuge of the moral integrity of the Jewish people, Ariel Sharon stands accused in the court of Jewish decency. And to those of us who stand in silence, in the words of the great Jewish theologian Abraham Joshua Heschel, "Some all guilty, but all are responsible."

Rabbi Forman is chairman of Rabbis for Human Rights
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roger
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 10:34 am
I didn't know that, Walter. Are we all racists for not knowing all this?
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 10:45 am
No. I don't think so. IMHO this is more a European 'affair', exactly a German.
Calling the Sinti and Roma (and others) 'Zigeuner' (= German for 'gypsy') was an easy way (= fuel the pre-judices) to get them eliminated during the Nazi-period.

Here is an interesting link about this:

Sinti and Roma
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steissd
 
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Reply Tue 18 Feb, 2003 03:46 pm
There are no proofs that Hobeika was killed by Mossad. He might have been killed by the Syrian secret services for some reasons of their own, not relating to the Belgian trial. It is possible to produce many other versions on the reasons for his being killed. Mossad people are not so stupid: they understand that Hobeika's killing will be used as an additional reason for accusation of the Israeli PM. If they needed to get rid of this man, he would die of natural reasons (heart attack, stroke, etc.).
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nimh
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 10:47 am
roger wrote:
I didn't know that, Walter. Are we all racists for not knowing all this?

No ... not really ;-).

"Gypsies" is a name from the generation "Indians", "Eskimos", "Lapps". Names invented by outsiders, who used it to label and lump together those they didn't know much about and didn't think very highly of.

The process of these native peoples' emancipation has meant that they have demanded the right back to be called by their 'real' names - the names they call themselves by. Thus nowadays it's "Inuit" instead of "Eskimo" and "Saami" instead of "Lapp". The Indians of old turned out to be in fact many different peoples, and thus the new catch-all term "native Americans" was introduced. The Gypsy vs Roma debate fits in the same category.

"Gypsy" was in fact a container name for people in many different countries, who tended to organise and define themselves by their (family) clan and/or by the country they live in. Some speak a dialect of their own language - Romanes; others speak the language of the country they live in. Some still trek around, others have been settled for generations. "Ethnic" identity has meant little to most of them, apart from the way they were othered and marginalised by the majority nationalities as "Gypsies". Some even have internalised that term and still use it for themselves.

The last decade (after the fall of communism), in particular, something of a national awareness movement has blossomed. A burgeoing Roma rights movement has started monitoring and protesting discrimination, racist violence, political exclusion. Ever more of them have demanded the right for their national identity to be recognized, as the carrier of a valuable transnational culture, and by its own name: Roma. In Western Europe the Sinti have gone through some of the same process in the last few decades.

So it's a combination of a process of emancipation, in which the racist labels and definitions have been thrown off and the 'own' name and cultural pride has been reclaimed - and of nation-building, as of course in practice, this ethnic Roma awareness is unevenly present at best.

For example, in censuses around Eastern Europe, Roma are still extremely underrepresented, as they prefer to register as Bulgarian, Slovak, Czech, etc. Out of fear, or an internalised shame of who they are, or simply an opportunistic choice, taken easily in absence of deeply-rooted national awareness, to "be with the winners". Or out of a degree of assimilation - Hungarian Roma, for example, often speak only Hungarian and thus do not communicate or identify themselves with Roma elsewhere. In either Macedonia or Kosovo (I forget) one of the 1990s censuses suddenly showed up a substantial "Egyptian" minority, as - as anthropologists later found out - a new myth of origin was circulating among Roma that allowed them to self-identify in a way that seemed less stigmatising than Tzigane/Roma.

Roma are extremely weakly organised, and Roma political parties usually mobilise only a fraction of the estimated Roma population. And their political divisions are all caught up in the question of self-identification: thus in Bulgaria, Romas will take part in (ex-)Communist-oriented associations with the "Tzigane" (Gypsy) label, or in clubs and parties associated with the anti-Communists under the label of "Roma".

But the process of emancipation is definitely underway. In the last Slovak census, for example, more Roma had identified themselves as such than before. In Hungary, Roma have come to organise through the new system of local and regional self-government. Individual Roma have been elected into parliament on the lists of various national parties. There's a vibrant and transnationally organised Roma civil society (see www.errc.org for an example). In Budapest, the first-ever all-Roma radio station in Eastern Europe was launched (Radio C). And - ever more Roma take offense at being called "Gypsy".
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steissd
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 02:24 pm
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steissd
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 02:27 pm
By the way, the Russian term for Gypsies, "Tsygan" (derivative from the German "Zigeuner") appears even in the Gypsies' own folk songs, and one of the bands in Europe calls itself "Gypsy Kings"...
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2003 02:43 pm
Please call me Rom

There seem to be such and such.
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