12
   

This takes the cake for horrible decisions: Trump dumping the Dreamers

 
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2017 06:23 pm
Just listened to an interesting interview with a prof in UCLA who thinks this is going to be great for Canada and other countries that will be taking in a number of these well-educated young people. Definitely not a perspective I'd considered. I know we've done quite well with the Syrian refugees that have arrived over the past two years, so this could indeed be another good opportunity.

Earlier today, listened to a piece with an American economist about what the cost of this could be to the US (in addition to the loss of the brain power). Tax income lost, enforcement costs added.
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2017 06:33 pm
@ehBeth,
What percentage of these (illegal) immigrants do you suppose actually qualify as "well-educated young people."? Or, are you suggesting that Canada will only allow the well-educated young people to enter and screw the criminals and ne'r do wells?
maxdancona
 
  4  
Reply Tue 5 Sep, 2017 06:59 pm
@McGentrix,
What percentage of your kids qualify as "well-educated young people", McGentrix?

These kids were raised in America, they had the same experience that your kids had. They speak English as well as your kids do. They have the same connection to America that your kids have.

That is the point.

Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 01:23 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:


...These kids were raised in America, they had the same experience that your kids had. They speak English as well as your kids do. They have the same connection to America that your kids have.

That is the point.




I guess you do not subscribe to the concept of "old line families"? Nor, that the early bird catches the worm. If I remember correctly, your being ensconced in the American fabric likely has something to do with one side of your family were "old line."

It really has nothing to do with how well one can function in the U.S. society, but whether one wound up being brought into the system illegally. Sort of like the family that brings four children on board a bus and seats them in seats that fare paying customers deserve. Once upon a time small children sat on a parent's lap. I am trying to understand why the candidate Trump got such applause when he promised to end DACA. In otherwords, not everyone resonates with the unfairness to the children, but resonates with Americans that wind up playing musical chairs with illegals.

But you do deserve a brownie point for Heaven, for your caring for the innocent children. Notice how the parents set up the predicament, but few want to address their involvement.

Is anyone upset that Hungary wants no refugees? Or, do they get a pass for being Europeans?



Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 10:34 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie:
What country or countries were your grandparents born in? I'm guessing not the USA. The whole country is made up of immigrants, most of them in the last 3 generations.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 11:55 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

Foofie:
What country or countries were your grandparents born in? I'm guessing not the USA. The whole country is made up of immigrants, most of them in the last 3 generations.

He's one of those who feels this country is his by natural birthright, because... well hell - because he says so.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 05:32 am
"Dreamers" — who foisted that insipid title on the children of undocumented immigrants? So goddamned typical. We could really use more doers and less "dreamers".
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 05:50 am
@hightor,
Actually, they took it upon themselves. The term "Dreamer" came from within the immigrant rights community.

Sorry.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 07:01 am
@ossobucotemp,
I will buck the trend and say this was the best of several bad options Trump had on the Dreamers, and a surprisingly deft move from someone who is not know for that. The situation Trump faced was that he was about to be sued by state attorneys general and although he could have won on the merits, his own justice department would not have supported it so it would have lost for lack of a defense. Trump could have:

- Fired Sessions and hired someone who would have supported DACA. No way he finds a Republican the base likes that would do that.
- Cancelled DACA immediately throwing the DACA community into complete chaos.
- Let the attorneys general sue and punted to the courts where he would have lost and chaos would have ensued.

Instead, he found a middle road. It makes no sense legally (if the policy is illegal as Sessions states, then why on Earth would you continue it for six months), but it fends off the lawsuit, directly challenges Congress (specifically Republicans) to actually do something about immigration and presents a risk and a potential benefit. Will Republicans be the party to partially fix immigration and save Dreamers or will it be the party that completely energizes minorities to turn out in the midterms? It also looks like Trump wants to get something (anything) moving and that could come about by siding with the Democrats. That certainly happened on the debt extension and Hurricane Harvey relief.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 07:43 am
@engineer,
I agree with you Engineer. This was the best political move for Trump (and may even help my side).

The tension between Sessions and Trump was on display. It appears that Trump told him "this is your baby now".






0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 01:04 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The term "Dreamer" came from within the immigrant rights community.

Not directly. Here's what I found:
Quote:
The DREAM Act (short for Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act) was a bill in Congress that would have granted legal status to certain undocumented immigrants who were brought to the United States as children and went to school here. Although several versions of the bill have been introduced in Congress since 2001, it has never passed. In the last few years the term “DREAMer” has been used to describe young undocumented immigrants who were brought to the United States as children, who have lived and gone to school here, and who in many cases identify as American. The term DREAMer originally took its name from the bill in Congress, but it has a double meaning about the undocumented youth who have big hopes and dreams for a better future.

ADL
Yup, it's just as cheesy as I suspected — a gimmick, like the USAPATRIOT Act: Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism. So clever I want to puke.
maxdancona wrote:
Sorry.

Whatever for?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 01:13 pm
@ehBeth,
a Canadian independent senator has jumped on the bring-some-Dreamers- to-Canada bandwagon

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-could-gain-from-daca-move-1.4276201

(link to 7 min interview - looking for a transcript)

Quote:
Omidvar proposes that Canada give "special consideration" to 10,000 to 30,000 of these young people either through the existing economic stream or as international students.

"We know that international students have already been identified by our system as priorities for permanent residency," said Omidvar. "And in truth, we have not done so well in turning an aspiration into a reality because most international students still choose to go back.

"So, here are people who could apply for international student programs. Universities and colleges could come up with some special initiative or special outreach — college-to-college, university-to-university — maybe even a special scholarship program. But over time, they would be top of the line for economic integration," Omidvar added.

While Omidvar is sensitive to the fact that Canada is in the midst of complex trade negotiations with both the U.S. and Mexico (the country of origin for many DACA young people) she says if Canada fails to reach out, other countries could reap the benefits:

"Just as this is an opportunity for Canada, it is also an opportunity for other countries — including source countries of origin like Mexico and other Latin American countries.

"These young people have resiliency. They understand how the American system works. They understand American insecurities and securities. And if their personal safety can be guaranteed in source countries, maybe this is the new elite that will participate in nation building in those countries which their parents left, 20-plus years ago."


apparently at least one Canadian university is already bringing in Dreamers under an international student program
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 01:16 pm
@ehBeth,
Good news to me.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 02:35 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

Foofie:
What country or countries were your grandparents born in? I'm guessing not the USA. The whole country is made up of immigrants, most of them in the last 3 generations.


Coming here in the latter half of the 19th century, they were literally the personal property of the Czar of Russia. Not Russians. That was reserved for Christian Russians, or Muslim Russians. Jews were just the property of the Czar, as depicted in Fiddler On the Roof, where the Jews of a small village were ordered by the Czar's decree to go elsewhere.

But you brought up a non-sequitor, since there was open immigration until 1924. So my grandparents came as legal immigrants. And, to prevent ever going back to Russia, they immediately signed up for night school, so they can become citizens ASAP. Let's not talk about how many Jews from Russia contributed to this country, whether it was entrepreneurially, or in the wars since the late 19th century. Regardless, I believe, you are adding apples to oranges, so to speak. Are you next going to tell me that the New York Irish contributed no more than Mexican immigrant Mexicans?

The early bird catches the worm! The constitution was not written for the sleepy bird, or the proverbial grasshopper in the fable the Ant and the Grasshopper. (I say that the illegal immigration seemed to snowball when there was no more Universal Draft.)

And, I admit that when my grandparents came, all the proverbial heavy lifting was done already by generations of "early birds" (aka, Protestants) that had many dead from disease, starvation, or just the hard work in an undeveloped country. So, I do not pretend I deserve squat, compared to those early arrivals. The early bird catches the worm, and deserves to catch it, ethically speaking.

Now let's all say a prayer for those WASP)s that made America great in a prior century... Amen!

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 02:39 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

Blickers wrote:

Foofie:
What country or countries were your grandparents born in? I'm guessing not the USA. The whole country is made up of immigrants, most of them in the last 3 generations.

He's one of those who feels this country is his by natural birthright, because... well hell - because he says so.


Where did you get that idea? It's your birthright too. Your ancestors did much of the provervbial "heavy liftting" that made this country what it is. And based on your discussions about the ethicality of reparations, don't tell me that ain't so.

And, it's my birthright, since the law says that one is a citizen if one was born here. So, what are you basing your pejorative innuendo on?
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  4  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 10:49 pm
@Foofie,
"Early bird catches the worm" is not a valid explanation. If America is no longer a place to bring in the strivers and oppressed, then we will have lost the very nature of America. Sorry, "my grandfolks made it over before they made it illegal" doesn't cut it.

Should we change the inscription on the Statue of Liberty to "Send me your tired, your poor, until we decide we don't want them anymore, then you're out of luck"?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2017 02:28 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

"Early bird catches the worm" is not a valid explanation. If America is no longer a place to bring in the strivers and oppressed, then we will have lost the very nature of America. Sorry, "my grandfolks made it over before they made it illegal" doesn't cut it.

Should we change the inscription on the Statue of Liberty to "Send me your tired, your poor, until we decide we don't want them anymore, then you're out of luck"?


"Doesn't cut it"? That opinion does not reflect the law. You might be promulgating a very universal concept of what constitutes accceptable immigration. It doesn't reflect our law, nor the law of many nations. Just because we are a wealthy nation is no reason to have open borders. But, if you want to resonate with those that want to come to the U.S. for a better life, that is your right; however, your proselytizing to me, or thinking it is a valid subject for discussion, is again nothing I have subscribe to. I do not want to discuss this topic with you, since I do not know your qualifications to debate this with me. Please debate it with someone else.

Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2017 02:41 pm
@Foofie,
My qualifications are the same as yours-I'm the grandchild of immigrants on both sides. Over half the white people in the US are descended from immigrants who arrived since 1900. And America has always held itself up as the refuge for those who dare to hope. Written right on the Statue of Liberty. And your response to me is purely childish-when talking about fundamental American principles, you say "the early bird gets the worm". I have no desire to debate this topic with you, unless you begin to exhibit the maturity to do so.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2017 02:08 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

My qualifications are the same as yours-I'm the grandchild of immigrants on both sides. Over half the white people in the US are descended from immigrants who arrived since 1900. And America has always held itself up as the refuge for those who dare to hope. Written right on the Statue of Liberty. And your response to me is purely childish-when talking about fundamental American principles, you say "the early bird gets the worm". I have no desire to debate this topic with you, unless you begin to exhibit the maturity to do so.


Your concept of the Statue of Liberty is skewed. It reflects the U.S. being a beacon of democracy, in a world that was still ruled by monarchs. The author of the poem was Emma Lazarus, a Jewish woman that wanted to give the statue, being a gift from France, some greater meaning to those that wanted to live in a democracy.

The early bird gets the worm, which is why the largest land owners are Protestant, and the interlocking boards of directors are heavily WASPa, with some Catholics as, in my opinion, thrown in as "tokens." However, do you know of any illegal immigrants that own large ranches, or are on the board of directors of U.S. corporations? My point is that you may have your opinion of allowing anyone wanting a better life to come to the U.S.; however, it is against the law. This topic has nothing to do with one's maturity, but whether one is going to abide by the law, or one thinks they have some sort of moral high ground that is above the law. If one believes in any God, then one might agree in that God's eyes we are all equal; however, in the eyes of the immigration law we are either legal or illegal. You might be getting your ideas from those that promulgate the concept that we are citizens of the world. Sorry, I am only a citizen of the U.S. and value the law.

Back in the Vietnam Era (before your time, I'd guess) many of your ilk would be pejoratively referred to as "bleeding heart liberals." We don't hear that anymore. So, even though the majority of the masses have become very caring liberals, that does not mean they are correct. Think of how the world was once pagan, and then suddenly they realized that worshipping stone idols might be in error.

edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 11 Sep, 2017 02:44 pm
I have lived around poor Mexicans of US birth all of my life. When I worked construction, I mingled with illegal Latin Americans, from varying countries, a period from the 60's into the 90's, mostly Mexicans, and worked with some, who had green cards, later than that. These people might be described as the 'salt of the earth.' If we have to kick somebody out, I say let's round up the ones first that want to kick out Mexicans.
 

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