10
   

Right to Refuse Service

 
 
emmett grogan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 08:01 pm
@maxdancona,
I wouldn't serve him/her/you. As an expression of my free speech. I'd be perfectly willing to have my position tested as to whether it was also protected speech. I've no-served people for just being nitwits. Felt good.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  3  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 08:02 pm
@centrox,
Quote:
Folks, let's not feed trolls.


You're right. Sorry.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 08:06 pm
@emmett grogan,
That is a lie Emmett. Link to the post where I have defended someone who calls themself a Nazi.

Goodbye.
emmett grogan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 08:30 pm
@maxdancona,
Uncinch your shorts, I'm in no mood to feed you today.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 08:37 pm
@emmett grogan,
Emmet, you are behaving this way because you want to prevent any perspective that doesn't fit into your narrow ideological perspective. That is why you are lying and making juvenile personal attacks.

How about you express your opinion, and letting other people express theirs?

I feed on intelligent discussion from people with interesting viewpoints. You are right, you haven't fed me at all.

Now... if we can get back to the topic at hand.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 09:45 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:

Goodbye.


So, when will that take effect?

Have you looked into medication?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 10:08 pm
There is an amazing amount of bullshit here. In the United States, dram shop law prohibits bartenders, bar managers and publicans from serving alcohol to people who arrive on their premises inebriated. Although that places a burden of judgment on the publican and his/her employees, the courts have consistently upheld dram shop laws. Dram shop laws vary from state to state, but that only affects the penalties to be levied for serving someone who arrives inebriated. In some states, there's a three strikes and your out provision in dram shop law--get busted for serving inebriated customers or underage customers three times and they'll jerk your liquor license.

If you own Joe's Greasy Spoon and Great Burgers, you have to serve the public beyond considerations of public health regulation ("no shirt, no shoes, no service"). You cannot pick and choose among potential patrons on any basis other than that. At the very least, you risk a potential costly law suit (and small businessmen and -women usually cannot afford a suit even if they win) with the attendant bad publicity. In many states and most large municipalities, you will also be subject to heavy fines.

Apart from dram shop law and public health considerations, there virtually is no "right" to refuse service.
TomTomBinks
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 07:27 am
@Setanta,
The fellow I was having the talk with sincerely believed he had the right to refuse service on any basis or no basis at all. He saw it as a personal freedom. It's all hypothetical because neither of us own businesses.
When I pointed out that he could be sued for denying service to someone because of race (for example) he shrugged and said he would never admit to racial discrimination, but simply state he was refusing service for some other reason.
In most cases this would only be an inconvenience and the customer could just go into another store. However when I used my "last gas" example, it didn't change his mind, he maintained that he had no responsibility to serve anyone and it was entirely his decision and any resulting consequences were simply not his concern. He's not alone in his attitude.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 09:14 am
@Setanta,
Careful Setanta.... I agree with the point you are making. Just think twice.
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 10:01 am
@TomTomBinks,
TomTomBinks wrote:
The fellow I was having the talk with sincerely believed he had the right to refuse service on any basis or no basis at all

I don't know about any other jurisdiction, but in the UK a purchase is an agreement entered into freely by both sides, buyer and seller. Either is free to take part, or not. A buyer cannot be forced to buy, and a seller cannot be forced to sell. In the case of the exceptions I listed above, an aggrieved buyer might seek to take court action for compensation, or the local Trading Standards authority might do so.
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 10:06 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
In the United States, dram shop law prohibits bartenders, bar managers and publicans from serving alcohol to people who arrive on their premises inebriated.

In Britain, publicans are required not only to refuse to serve alcohol to those who arrive inebriated, but also to refuse those who arrived sober, but who, in the publican's judgement, have since become excessively inebriated (who have 'had enough'). It is sometimes a fine point, especially given that people go to pubs and bars to (among other things) experience the effects of alcohol. You'd have to be more than tipsy or merry to get refused. In general you would have to be in a state where your safety, or that of others is at risk - you are unsteady on your feet, and/or have been behaving aggressively.
0 Replies
 
emmett grogan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 01:50 pm
@TomTomBinks,
In Texas I can refuse alcohol service to anyone I want just because I want to refuse service.

Sometimes people just need to be shown the egressorium.
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 03:03 pm
@emmett grogan,
I get the independence and personal freedom argument, and most shop owners would simply serve anyone unless they were disruptive or drunk etc. But this leaves the door wide open for systematic persecution. There will always be those who misuse their freedoms.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 03:05 pm
@emmett grogan,
Quote:
In Texas I can refuse alcohol service to anyone I want just because I want to refuse servic


This isn't true. If you wanted to refused alcohol service to Black people, but not to other races, you would be breaking the civil rights law.
emmett grogan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 03:12 pm
@TomTomBinks,
Quote:
unless they were disruptive or drunk etc. But this leaves the door wide open for systematic persecution. There will always be those who misuse their freedoms.


That's a highly subjective criteria.

Beats the alternatives of serving him and having him jump someone in the men's room or the parking lot or broadside some kids on the way to a prom.

Beats serving him and then he brings his idiot friends to my place and having to serve them as they drive the quiet drinkers I's rather have out of the house.

Constitutional rights don't violate other Constitutional rights. And while I cannot discriminate I can 86 anyone I want for as long as I want when ever I want and the courts back me up.

emmett grogan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 03:17 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
This isn't true. If you wanted to refused alcohol service to Black people, but not to other races, you would be breaking the civil rights law.


Another thing you don't know WTF you're talking about. I can no serve a black person so long as it isn't for racial reasons. In Texas the law specifically says I can no serve anybody I want for no reason at all and a lot restaurants and bars post "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Just because you think you know everything doesn't mean you do, max. Check into the TABC laws here in Texas before you say any more dumb things.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 03:25 pm
@emmett grogan,
I think you are arguing over words. But OK, what you are saying here is correct... but if you are denying service for no reason and happen to deny service to African-Americans, you might end up with a lawsuit. Anyway arguing over words is not interesting, I will let you and Setanta have at it.
0 Replies
 
TomTomBinks
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 06:18 pm
@emmett grogan,
Just for the sake of argument, leave the alcohol out and pretend you own a souvenir shop. If you didn't like Mexicans you could simply tell them to leave if they came into your store. If someone accused you of unfair racial discrimination, you could play innocent and say you LOVE Mexicans, you just didn't like that particular individual. If your fellow shopkeepers felt the same way you could effectively have a Mexican-free town. This leaves the door open for bigots to racially discriminate. It's not far-fetched, it's been and is being done
MethSaferThanTHC
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 06:25 pm
@TomTomBinks,
I'm refused a straight answer because I'm mentally ill. Hope this helps
emmett grogan
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2017 07:16 pm
@TomTomBinks,
I believe you can no serve anyone merely because you feel some sort of ill ease about them.

That ill ease cannot be about gender, race, religion, orientation, age, country of origin, etc. Especially if they hang the sign - "We reserve the right to refuse the right to serve anyone".

I also understand that there might be some who might abuse the sign to discriminate. But at least they have to lie and go through some act of dissemblance to pull it off.

Personally there are merchants in this town I don't patronize because I can't abide with their whiny tea baggery - they even post tea baggy signs with their dribble in their windows.

I think of it as my reserved right to refuse my patronage of anyone.

0 Replies
 
 

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