Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

This made me chuckle. Both Liberals and conservatives are moral absolutists (as this thread attests). Yes, I am enjoying being attacked by both sides.... you agree that there are obvious moral absolutes, but you can't agree on what they are. I find that both amusing and illustrative. But, I will let you all work this out between yourselves.

If were not enjoying this discussion I would not be here. If you aren't here for your own enjoyment... then why are you here? I am a moral relativist in that I don't believe any culture (including our own) has a monopoly on absolute moral truth. I care about multiculturalism and have some experiences with indigenous cultures. But, I don't have any illusions that anyone's mind will be changed here.

I am just poking at absolutism to probe its weaknesses... and I am responding to the uncomfortable positions I need to take to maintain relativism. These discussions are useful in questioning your own point of view... if you are in to that sort of thing (which I am).

I don't really understand why people take these things so personally.

You and Snood are on the same side on this issue. Come on, admit it. That's a little funny.

Not so difficult. If I know more than 2 men who've been circumcised as a result of conversion in their 30's , there has to be a reasonable population to interview / assess.

I meant before and after one person. The babyboy compared with the grown up man.
To discuss or compare the sexual drive in human beings is rather difficult.
It is diffent , some enjoy it more than others, it can be their personality, it can be the way they are brought up, there are many reasons. What one person finds normal is for another one, too often and for someone else too seldom.

You aren't answering the difficult question. You are a person of privilege from the dominant culture. And, you are judging communities of color with indigenous cultures.

There is a desire of White people to protect indigenous women from their own cultures.

How do you reconcile this basic problem? Feminism is often at odds with the traditional cultures of women of color. It ignore centuries of history, pretending that Western Culture represents absolute truth that it is duty bound to impose on indigenous peoples.

The simplistic narrative that people in Western Cultures know best is convenient, but not logical.

I would argue that the biggest problem in indigenous communities is the existence of national borders, and the control of wealth from national currencies. These are things that were imposed by the West and that we use and profit from without questioning the morality or the consequences.

The dominance of Western Culture means that indigenous cultures in Africa and South America are locked into poverty... even poverty is controlled by Western culture. They are not only robbed of their cultures, they are also physically locked out of resources to provide for their own needs. For women whose children are dying of starvation, does the question of whether their daughter's upcoming marriage meets Western Standards of morality is rather unimportant.

We wiped out these cultures, and the ones that still survive now live in a world that we dominate.

I think that questioning the judgments that we make about their cultural practices should be open to question.

Why should people who are lucky enough to be privileged by Western Culture (an accident of birth) be able to judge traditional indigenous practices as "barbaric"? Who made us the judge of right and wrong?

If women enjoy being circumcised why do they then run away and can get
asylum in a Western country? Why are they willing to go thru operations to become normal again - as much as possible.
If they knew don´t you think they would prefer to be able to have a baby without all the risks a circumcised woman has?
Don´t you think they would love to get rid of being incontinent in more than one way.
Are you also for burning widows? Or what is done now adays - throw out the
widow of the house and let her take care of herself, by begging or even worse.
No matter if she is an old woman or a young woman.
For you it is just to let people have their traditions no matter how some will
suffer.
I do not feel superior to other people, but I wish that people can live a dignified life - you don´t.

I don't think you are objectively looking for truth Saab. I think you are starting with a Cultural bias and then looking for evidence that supports your pre-suppositions. An objective look for truth involves questioning both sides.

You aren't asking why many women aren't running away from their traditional cultures. I have never seen the voices of these women even considered in Western media. There are also women running away from Western culture into cultures that you would find troubling.

You aren't asking whether women in pre-colonial times were happy in their traditional indigenous cultures before White people showed up. And you aren't asking if indigenous women, as a whole, benefited from Western culture that now dominates their societies.

The questions you are asking are valid. I have never said that these issues are simple. But the questions you are asking are also one-sided.

The effects of Colonialism are troubling... imposing Western Cultural values on indigenous cultures is what Colonialism did, and we are still talking about doing this.

Do understand why the idea of White people protecting indigenous women from their own cultural traditions is uncomfortable? Can you honestly look at the negative impact of our history doing just that?

Not if the word accurately describes the practice.

Can you imagine someone witnessing a girl having her clitoris pointlessly cut off, and then rightly commenting on the barbarity of the practice, only to have someone like yourself tell them that that makes them a bigot? You don't condemn the mutilation of the girls genitalia, but you have something to say about the person who would rightly describe it as barbaric.

A girl is having her clitoris cut off. A person says, "That's barbaric."

You say, "That's not fair."

The person says, "Boy that's for sure. She doesn't deserve that."

And you reply, "I wasn't talking about what's being done to the girl. "I'm talking about your comment."
_______________________________________

And since you're referring to the dictionary for answers:

Barbaric:
[bärˈberik]

ADJECTIVE
1. savagely cruel; exceedingly brutal:

2. primitive; unsophisticated:
_________________________________________

Carrying out barbaric acts in the name of culture does not change the fact of the barbaric nature of the act.

You are fixated on female genital "mutilation". And, I understand why.

Any Westerner (myself included) is going to judge this as a horrific act. We make this judgement instinctively, without even any thought. We don't know what this really entails, we don't know the differences of the practice from culture to culture. We con't understand how any mother who has undergone the practice herself then wants the same for her daughter (and yet many do). We can't even give these mothers a voice of their own... although they understand the cultural meaning behind the practice better than anyone..

What you are failing to see is how your own cultural biases prevent you from even questioning your own instinctive beliefs. And you don't see how the history of Colonization involved Western Cultural power being used to stop traditional practices it couldn't accept.

Let's say concede that female genital mutilation is unacceptable according to some universal absolute truth (rather than just our Western Cultural standards of morality).

What else from indigenous populations would you condemn? It is not just this one thing (which is admitting shocking). You want to get rid of traditional marriage. What about child rearing? Hunting rituals? Customs about aging? Political decision making?

It isn't just genital mutilation where we are imposing our values on indigenous populations. Inevitably Western Culture is going to differ in significant ways from any indigenous culture. History shows that.

When this happens, the West has always had the economic and political power. Our cultural biases, our objections, our outrage now runs the world that we dominate.

That makes what what we think a kind of truth. If you say it's true and an indigenous woman disagrees, you will win the argument and she will be silenced. That is what has happened, it is nearly impossible to find any voice expressing a disagreement with Western cultural norms such as this.

That doesn't mean anything when it comes to absolute truth.

In your culture, does discussion of an issue constitute fixation?

I've asked you to provide reference to one of these women who can explain the benefit of having her clitoris cut off. I assume you've found nothing.

Not here to dispute the gist of your ramblings (in this one post), however, I would take you to task for not including other larger swaths of humanity which have been harmed by the so called Western culture. (You'd do well to advise us all what you believe constitutes the designation, so, we'd have a better notion which peoples were included/excluded.)

What about the peoples of India? Various lands in the Pacific?

How about that huge group of indigenous cultures and people residing (often just barely), in what many call The United States of America?

Peoples of the middle east? How about them?

All of them have had their starting soils sullied and their roots damaged.


Additionally, while you yammer on about the terrible Western Culture, I feel a pressing need to remind you that other groups have wreaked their own forms of cultural (and physical) annihilation. Remember the Mongols?

Over the centuries different groups have ruled over different regions. As a matter of fact, even what you like to refer to as Western Culture was in no small part crafted by invasive forces from other places.

A human persons culture needs to grow, sometimes it is met with resistance and succumbs. Other times the growth process flourishes. All of it comes together in the final product found in the Petrie dish we call Earth.

There are mothers who have had this procedure done themselves and want the same procedure for their daughters. It seems probable to me that they believe there is a benefit. I have never met one of these mothers or seen anywhere that they are given a voice in Western media.

I think this says a lot about the cultural bias under which Western media operates. These mothers should be given a respectful voice where they can explain their cultural values and what they mean to them.

I would love to read an article written by a woman in favor of female circumcision who has actually gone through the traditional procedure herself. Do you think that any Western publication would be brave enough to publish such an article?

Would you be able to read it with an open mind? Do you think that the publisher would be employed for more than two days for publishing this voice?

If an adult woman has convinced herself that in order for her to be complete in some way, she should cut her clitoris away, then that's her decision. But to impose her belief onto her daughter is not fair to the daughter. The mother finds no value in her clitoris. That doesn't mean that the clitoris of her daughter has no value.

I'm surprised you can't find something on the internet that could tell us all what benefit a woman experiences from having her clitoris cut off.

How can you possibly divine the internal mental state of indigenous women you have never met who are part of a culture you know nothing about?

You are just using your own cultural experiences and biases to construct a narrative that makes sense to you in the absence of any real knowledge or understanding (either that or you have amazing psychic powers).

I wonder how much talking to an indigenous woman with a different point of view would change your understanding.

Sturgis,

Your post is intelligent, and you raise a good point about the "petri dish" metaphor. I plan to come back to this when I have time.

I know that, for whatever reason, you believe that, given a choice between having her clitoris cut off and not having it cut off, a girl will opt to have it cut off because the thought of doing so is so appealing to her.

Ah, so you are relying on your psychic powers to divine what benefit such a woman sees in having her clitoris cut off. I see.

If there had been many men like maxdacona in our society we would still live
a life which would be rather unfair.
Women could not study, would not inheret the same amount as the brothers,
could not have their own bankaccount, where not really forced to marry someone, but put pressure on them, witches would still be burnt, women could not vote.
We would have slaves and galley slaves, unfair payments, official beatings,head chopped off, children working in mines and factories.
Luckily there were many men and women, who were for a dignified life for men, women, children and peasants.

You are misconstruing any conclusion I might have. I have no conclusion; I only likened your relativistic viewpoint to Anthropology 101. Before you ascribe to my post something else that I did not allude to, let me go.

Relax, boychick. You are one of those special people. We're all under your moral umbrella. Now try to enjoy July 4th.