10
   

Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 02:38 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Poincaré considered intuition a powerful force in mathematics


Poincare also proved every one of his theorems carefully with logical precision. Is this meaning of the word "intuition" a type of creativity; it can lead the mind in many directions of which many will be wrong but some will be fruitful?

It is dangerous when intuition (something that is neither fact-based nor proven) is regarded as truth.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 02:47 pm
@maxdancona,
To summarise Poincaré's thought, logic cannot create anything but tautologies, and intuition creates new ideas a plenty but they are often proven wrong by analysis. Only a combination of intuition and logic can be fruitful.

Poincaré - Intuition and Logic in Mathematics:
http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Extras/Poincare_Intuition.html
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 02:52 pm
@Olivier5,
I agree with that. As long as intuition is a source of ideas to be tested (many of which will prove wrong) and not a source of truth.

The act of questioning your own beliefs, and your own ideological narrative, seems to be difficult. But it is an important part of reaching a real understanding based on facts.
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 02:58 pm
@Olivier5,
Hey, I understand, and your are dea
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 03:07 pm
@maxdancona,
Modesty aside, I was a very intuitive math student, always by far top of my class, and my intuitions rarely proved wrong. Reading Poincaré years later I understood why: I was priming my intuition with hard analytical work, approaching a problem the "classic" way ie trying out different lines of logic to see where they led. Only when that failed, I would go to bed churning these ideas around, and then the next morning i would wake up and immediatly "see" the solution in a fuzy holistic way. Then it would take me a few minutes to translate my intuition in a logical proof. Poincaré insists on that very much: only hard analytical work can prime the pump of intuition, and only logic can prove it right. So intuition is not a form of lazyness, it works only when "sandwiched" by logic. But with logic alone, you have only bread and no meat in your sandwich.
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 03:11 pm
@Olivier5,
Probably trying to getting to the crabs;;

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 03:19 pm
@ossobucotemp,
I trust you know it already, but once in a while I should still say it. Wink
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 04:14 pm
@Olivier5,
Yes, I think that many of us in math and science have the experience when we leave a difficult problem for a while, and then come up with a solution "out of the blue" later on. It is also common for us geeks to be absent minded... a analytical mind often wanders here and there finding interesting ideas even when we don't have a specific problem to solve. This mental wandering leads to interesting thoughts that can then be accessed when there is a problem that needs them.

I suppose this can be called "intuition". I don't object to Poincare's use of the word, nor do I think it is a false cognate.

One annoying skeptical thought... do you have any objective measure as to how often your "intuitions" are proven wrong? People often claim that their premonitions are always correct, but what is really happening is that they remember when they guess correctly, and forget when they are wrong.

It would be interesting to write down a bunch of "intuitions" as you have them and then test all of them when facts are available to see how many are correct versus incorrect. People who use the word "intuition" as a form of "premonition" are always annoyed and upset by this type of objective test.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 04:58 pm
@snood,
Not surprising for someone who sees bogeymen in every shadow.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 05:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Don't be afraid of the shadows Finn, well cautious maybe, just not afraid.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 05:27 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Not surprising for someone who sees bogeymen in every shadow.

If, by "bogeymen in every shadow" you mean "traitorous vermin in the White House", I'm guilty.
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 06:17 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:


What word do you use to describe someone who out of ignorance, lack of exposure to others, doesn't express a hatred or dislike of other groups, but believes in the other groups innate inferiority?


I usually describe them as either a racist, bigot or just an ignorant asshole Razz
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 07:42 pm
@jcboy,
Thank you jc, that's what the OP wanted to discuss...sadly the anti-choice folks got emotional and derailed the discussion.

My family also thinks of racists and bigots as ignorant assholes. I wonder why they are so hardwired they can't entertain even the notion they 'might' be ignorant.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 08:01 pm
@jcboy,
jcboy wrote:

chai2 wrote:


What word do you use to describe someone who out of ignorance, lack of exposure to others, doesn't express a hatred or dislike of other groups, but believes in the other groups innate inferiority?


I usually describe them as either a racist, bigot or just an ignorant asshole Razz


I love irony.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 08:02 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
My family also thinks of racists and bigots as ignorant assholes. I wonder why they are so hardwired they can't entertain even the notion they 'might' be ignorant.


I don't think you actually meant to say this about your family. It makes the point pretty well anyway; each side thinks of the other as "bigots" and "ignorant assholes" without ever questioning their own beliefs.

Speaking truth by accident....




glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 08:51 pm
@maxdancona,
I don't know what you are trying to say......but it's not necessary to elaborate. You obviously have your panties in a bunch over something...and if it's something I said.....I can live with that. It would be incredibly time consuming to explain myself to you.....can you honestly think of one single reason I would want to spend a great deal of time in hopes of getting your approval? Are you seeking my approval???? No you are not and that's just fine, it really is, honest to God. Why don't you just start an abortion thread and moralize over there. I enjoy abortion discussions as much as I enjoy NASCAR. You just go have a nice life.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Jul, 2017 10:09 pm
@glitterbag,
Glitterbag, I am really here for two reasons. To enjoy myself (after all this is for entertainment), and to push different points of view and be opposed so that I can understand my own beliefs better.

You are pushing a specific narrative; you seem to to believe that right is right and that wrong is wrong and that men oppress women. This is all fine and good. But I tend to push back on this this kind of absolutist narrative that refuses to accept that any other perspective has any validity. I push back because it provides a foil upon which I can push to test my own opinions.

This is enjoyable to me, and I find it valuable.

I don't really take it personally. You shouldn't either. If you aren't enjoying this, or finding that someone pushing on your ideas helps you to question your own beliefs... then I don't know why you are here. You are spending "a great deal of time" (as you say) doing something here. Able2know is a place to find people to disagree with. If you want a filter, so that you are only confronted with opinions with which you already agree... you should be on Facebook.

(BTW... If you take your previous post literally, you seem to be saying that your family can't entertain the idea that they 'might' be ignorant. I am pretty sure you didn't mean to say this. I was playing with you. If you can't see the humor... I am sorry.)
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jul, 2017 04:33 am
@maxdancona,
I've cecked the wiki entry for intuition and the general meaning is the same as in French:

Quote:
Different writers give the word "intuition" a great variety of different meanings, ranging from direct access to unconscious knowledge, unconscious cognition, inner sensing, inner insight to unconscious pattern-recognition and the ability to understand something instinctively, without the need for conscious reasoning.


I like "unconscious pattern-recognition".

According to Poincaré, it must indeed be unconscious -- happening typically during sleep or when one has stopped thinking consciously about a problem -- and it would involve a sort of Darwinian mechanism whereby new ideas created randomly are passed through a selection process that discards the ones with little promise and keep the ideas that seem to go somewhere. Then the result is passed on to consciousness, giving an impression of "out of the blue".

The wiki entry mentions the colloquial meaning of "a gut feeling based on experience", which is slightly different but also works for me. The key being "based on experience".

That it is sometimes or even often wrong is not a unique problem. Logic can also misfire, human error is always possible.

The worrying point for me is the connection (in wiki and in your posts) with "prejudice". That is indeed a danger for people who rely a lot on intuition. Thanks for making the connection.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2017 02:03 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

glitterbag wrote:
My family also thinks of racists and bigots as ignorant assholes. I wonder why they are so hardwired they can't entertain even the notion they 'might' be ignorant.


I don't think you actually meant to say this about your family. It makes the point pretty well anyway; each side thinks of the other as "bigots" and "ignorant assholes" without ever questioning their own beliefs.

Speaking truth by accident....



I don't use the word "ignorant," since I believe it implies that if only an ignorant person got educated, they would see the light of correct thinking. However, we are born into a culture from our parents, and at a fairly early age we have internalized belief systems that there is little one can do to counter. So, if people really are not open to changing viewpoints, what might be the option to live on the same planet? In my opinion, just accept the lack of comfort one has in the presence of certain people, and as Americans, we do not have to prove anything by being everyone's buddy. That might not be the corporate culture in a job, but then one might do better at another job, for example.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jul, 2017 02:07 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

...I am really here for two reasons. To enjoy myself (after all this is for entertainment), and to push different points of view and be opposed so that I can understand my own beliefs better...




From your perspective that is. From the perspective of your Karma, you are giving others the benefit of seeing how different others might think about a topic, since many of us live in a mutual admiration society of sorts. You are teaching by example, so to speak.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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