Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

Yes, that is obvious.

You are still unable/unwilling to separate a practice from the culture in which the practice is done; that is, if someone sees the harm in mutilation, you accuse them of condemning any culture that indulges in that practice. You see a bigot where there is only someone acknowledging the harm of mutilation, and the inappropriateness of adult men being wedded to immature females.

My indoctrination has nothing to do with knowing violence when I see it. Perhaps you could explain the virtues of female genital mutilation. Maybe there's something I'm missing--some legitimate reason for it. I'm all ears. And concerning the issue of men marrying children, what, or who, is being served?

You are part of Modern Western Culture. I am part of this culture... I can't explain the value of child marriage, or even of genital mutilation. My cultural indoctrination makes it difficult to understand and accept.

Indigenous women and men can explain, but for them to do so you have to accept them as equals and realize that your indoctrination gets in the way of you understanding a different set of beliefs. The way you think is part of your culture. Your values and beliefs are part of your culture. You keep saying your indoctrination isn't important the things you "know". You are wrong. Your indoctrination has everything to do with how you interpret cultural practices. It is an honest question, could you listen respectfully to an indigenous woman who was explaining why her cultural traditions, including child marriage or circumcision is important to her culturally? Could you accept what she said as your equal even though it goes against everything you believe?

Child marriage is common in indigenous cultures in pre-colonial African and America. Western culture (i.e. White people) came to African and American indigenous cultures and tried to wipe out the process. This is the process that we are talking about... ending traditional ideas of marriage in indigenous cultures because Western culture doesn't approve.

You keep on talking in absolutes, as if your Modern Western point of view was the only possible point of view:

- You say "know violence when you see it" (evidently indigenous people don't)..
- You label certain indigenous practices are "innappropriate" (although indigenous people find them appropriate).
- You state that indigenous traditions are inherently "harmful" (although these traditions were developed and maintained by indigenous people).

It is a fact that Western Culture overran, dominated and in many cases wiped out indigenous cultures. There traditions were largely stamped out, their beliefs were replaced by our beliefs, their practices are now judged by us (and only some of them are deemed acceptable).

I don't accept that you, a Modern Western Woman in a culture with a heritage of colonization, have the right to judge other cultural practices. Given the history of your culture; what right do you have to tell indigenous cultures which of their practices are unacceptable to you?

Child marriage has been a common facet of indigenous cultures in Africa and Asia before the Europeans came. I don't accept that indigenous women in Africa and America ever needed White people to come and save them from their own cultures.

Cultural supremacy is the easy way out. You can tell indigenous women that child marriage is "rape" and that if they disagree they are wrong. Or you can realize that different cultures look at things very differently... and that treating other cultures as equals leads to difficult questions. Admitting that our culture doesn't have absolute truth is difficult. But given our culture's history of subjugating, dominating and wiping out indigenous cultures, I think we should think twice before telling them which of their practices we will and won't accept now.

So I guess you're trying to tell us that you have risen above cultural indoctrination.

Actually it's a lot more likely that you are arguing from the indoctrination of an American left wing culture that embraces moral relativism

Maybe one has to be careful who one considers are "equals." You might start thinking that Yankee fans are equal to Boston Red Sox fans. But, if you are telling me that relativism is a correct way to view the world, I would not want you in my WWI trench. You might begin to think that the enemy was right. Meaning, relativism makes for societal entropy/imploding. And that's good? Would I be correct to think that relativists tend to look down on absolutists? Just another ploy for people to feel superior, in my opinion. Not saying that absolutists don't also think their viewpoint is superior; but, both are afflicted with the same desire for the moral high ground. The old projecting one's ways on another.

Where have I said anything close to this? Every human being that lives in a culture has been indoctrinated; myself included. All I am doing is admitting my humanity.

I don't believe that Western Culture is superior to other cultures in any absolute sense (even though it is now the dominant culture). That is the crux of my argument.

I do prefer Western culture to any other culture... but that is to be expected.

Neither of these statements are true.

You interpret your inability to explain the value of female genital mutilation as a lack of understanding on your part. Interesting. The benefit of such mutilation exists only in the mind of those who hold it as valuable. As evidence of this, I would point to your inability to explain its value.

A different set of beliefs?? You are attempting to equate the act of mutilation with the holding of a belief. If you are so certain that pointless genital mutilation can be explained by those who practice it, tell me that explanation. What have you heard?

No one disputes that that is a fact. But you were asked to provide the rationale for a mature, adult male pairing up with an emotionally, intellectually, and physically immature female child. Oddly, you chalk up your inability to understand the wisdom of such a bonding to your own cultural indoctrination. Do you think it's an illusion that the adult male will have nothing in common with a girl child? What will they have in common? Speak up man.

Yes, I know violence when I see it. There is no point to mutilating a female's genitalia. Anyone who sees it as a desirable thing does not know violence when they see it. You've convinced yourself that there is something about it that legitimizes it that you don't understand because of your cultural indoctrination. You can't name what that something is, and so it is simply a belief that you hold which is based on nothing.

No. You're not paying attention. Again I have to remind you that my condemnation of needlessly taking a knife to a girl's genitalia is not a condemnation of an entire culture. I trust I won't have to tell you again.

No it isn't. I admit as much. However, for some, admitting that needlessly taking a knife to a girl's genitalia serves no purpose is difficult.

I don't require your acceptance of my non acceptance of taking a knife to a girl's genitalia. Also, I'm not the one with a history of colonization. I believe you're referring to the government of the country I was born into.

You are absolutely right, the benefit of these practices exists only in the mind of those who hold it as valuable... this is the wisest thing you have said in this discussion. Some of these people happen to be women who have experienced these practices themselves and are part of continuing them to future generations.

Do you really think your understanding, as a member of modern Western society, of any of these traditional practices should matter? Would you be able to sit down with one of these indigenous women as an equal and let her explain it to you? Would you be open to letting them change your mind (just as you would want this indigenous woman to be open to your perspective)?

You are making a judgement, based on your own cultural indoctrination on practices that you have zero experience with that is part of a culture you know almost nothing about. Because you consider it "violence" and "mutilation" you are going to tell indigenous woman who know infinitely more than you about the culture that you can't accept it? There is something wrong about the continued desire of Westerners to tell indigenous cultures which of their practices are acceptable to the West.

Of course the people with understanding are the people who value these practices as part of their cultures. The question is whether we can treat them as equals even where we disagree.

This is good. You admit that the benefit of such practices is only a mental construct. When you come to the place where you recognize the problems that arise when such mental constructs exit the mind and picks up a knife, that will be even better!

But why do they hold it as valuable? In what context is female genital mutilation a benefit to the recipient?

You have no idea, do you?

You say that the values of indigenous cultures "mental constructs". Of course your values are "mental constructs" too. There is no objective reason to believe that your values are superior to those of indigenous women.

Imagine sitting down with an indigenous woman from an pre-colonial American (or African) tribe. She is getting ready to give her daughter in marriage according to her cultural traditions that have been passed down for hundreds of years.

You would have difficult explaining your values to her. She wouldn't understand what you meant by "equality". She certainly wouldn't get what you meant when you told her she was about to get her daughter "raped". These are your "mental constructs", they are meaningful to you because they have been passed down as part of your culture for hundreds of years. They would be meaningless to this happy mother (just as her values are meaningless to you).

Just as you and I have trouble understanding why her beliefs are valuable. She would have as much trouble understanding why our beliefs are valuable.

The only question is whether you and this indigenous woman could treat each other as equals in spite of your disagreements.

To further this thought experiment, imagine that this indigenous culture (rather than White Europeans) had been the culture lucky enough to develop guns and steel. Imagine that they (rather than us) had taken over the world through slavery and subjugation (just as we did) and were now the dominant culture in the world (just as we are). And imagine they believed in child marriage and couldn't understand why your indigenous culture wanted Western marriage.

Wouldn't you want this culture to respect you in spite of the fact that they were dominant? Can you imagine yourself in the position of these indigenous peoples where a dominant power was telling you which of the practices you hold dear is acceptable to them?

In any sense... your beliefs are as much "mental constructs" as anyone else's beliefs.

Not to quibble... but that horse doesn't look dead to me.

And besides, my latest post covered new ground in response to a challenge by Glennn. I don't know what you mean by "dead horse".

If a grown mature woman wants to mutilate herself, let her have at it; the value of doing so is derived from her own mental construct. You believe that forcing that kind of value onto an immature girl has value, though you can't speak it; you cannot recall a conversation in which the value of such a practice was articulated to you.

Which of my mental constructs involve the harming of another human?

Ideally we would have a woman from an indigenous culture here to defend herself... it is a little difficult since I am standing in even though have the same cultural indoctrination that you have.

Even so, it isn't that hard to come up with a few examples where Modern Western culture (even today) is hurting people from the perspective of indigenous cultures (property ownership, abortion, and national borders to name a few). Modern ideas about reproduction and marriage might literally mean destruction for cultures in an environment where cultural practices we would find unacceptable were necessary to ensure a sustainable birth rate. Of course it isn't worth you and I having these arguments since we would likely both be on the same side anyway. But I will point out that other cultures would see some of the things in our culture as quite harmful.

Indoctrination makes you think your beliefs are truths... and the strength of your beliefs seems like evidence of your correctness. This is certainly true with Western Culture... we are still promoting our beliefs as absolute truths at the expense of indigenous cultures.

I don't accept that the values of Western Culture are superior to that of other cultures.

You are likely sitting reading this at home. And you have the "right" to be there. This right is a mental construct that is so much a part of our culture that you might have never thought of this before. You either have a title giving you the ownership of the land yourself, or you pay rent to the owner of the land giving you the right to stay there.

But think about where the ownership of this property came from? The very idea that anyone can own land is a European idea... Indigenous Americans had no such concept. So all of a sudden White people came around, divided the land up into plots, wrote titles with a name indicating ownership. And now it was possible to exclude everyone (including the indigenous population) from being there. Native Americans never had titles to anything.

Property ownership is a mental construct that all of us rely on. It is so much a part of our Western Culture that we rarely even think about it. If someone broke this concept; coming into your space uninvited, you would not only be upset, you would have the power of the society behind you to enforce the rules.

If you think that this mental construct wasn't deeply harmful to indigenous cultures, you really don't understand your own history.

I've never said that they were. I've stated that adult men marrying immature girls defies reason. I've asked you numerous times to tell me what you think they have in common. Still waiting.

Are you pinning the disenfranchisement of a people on me? I had no say in what was done. So the question remains: Which of my mental constructs involve the harming of another human being that is comparable to handing a girl over to an adult man, or mutilating the genitalia of a girl?

Child marriage "defies reason" to you. Child marriage is common in indigenous cultures... obviously it does not defy reason to them. You seem to be insisting that your "reason" is superior to their "reason".

When you believe your values are absolute truth and that the values of indigenous peoples are "indoctrination" you believe that your values are superior to theirs. You are willing to question their judgment and give a number of reasons why they are wrong. You aren't willing to question your own judgement.

The Western Culture that you are a part of is responsible for colonizing America and Africa. Back then we dominated their culture and told them what was acceptable and what wasn't acceptable to us. How is that different than what you are doing now... telling them which of their practices is acceptable and which we won't accept? You are arguing that Western cultural values should be imposed on indigenous cultures.

Child marriage was common in pre-colonial African and American until White people came to to impose Western Culture on them. Child marriage still persists in these cultures (although we are stamping it out). If White people had never come to Africa or America there is no reason to suspect that child marriage wouldn't persist. How do you feel about that?

White people coming to save indigenous women from their own cultures... doesn't this narrative defy reason?

No, I'm insisting that you cannot answer the question of what a grown man and an emotionally, intellectually, and physically immature girl have in common. You must believe that age difference and having nothing in common has nothing to do with marital relationships. Is that so?

We are going around in circles... maybe Snood is right. I already explained this (hopefully we can find something new to talk about... otherwise this conversation has been a pleasure).

An indigenous woman could answer your question of how and why child marriages work. She understands the cultural context and has actual experience with the practice.

I don't really understand it, I have read some anthropology books including first person accounts from indigenous women who seem to feel as strongly about their cultural practices as you do about yours. In college we read about the Yanomami tribe in Brazil which still practices child marriage. It is very interesting and will challenge you as a Western reader. People in the tribe, including women, make it clear that they don't want to change their traditions.

But, no I have no more real personal experience than you do. My understanding comes distorted by the lens of the culture of which I am a part just as yours does.

You are correct, I cannot answer the question. The indigenous women who are happy living in these cultures could.