Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

@Glennn,

Quote:

Did you notice how you removed the girl from the equation?

Are you saying that there are no indigenous women? Indigenous girls grow into into women. This is true for indigenous women as it is for American women. Even in our society, it is adult women and men who make the decisions for the culture.

I am pointing out that indigenous men and women had very different ideas about what is right and wrong than modern American men and women have. Of course, our children grow up with our values (as do theirs).

1 Reply

@perennialloner,

perennialloner wrote:

If people who are isolated from Western influences can come to the same conclusion that most people in the world have about what's acceptable treatment of the female body, does that not suggest there's some overlap across human societies about decent behavior despite the various different practices among cultures.

Yes, it does suggest some overlap. But, I don't know which side you are arguing on.

Child marriage is far more common than our ideal of equal marriage in most cultures outside Western influence. Child marriage was common in pre-colonial North America, Africa, Asia...

Does this suggest that child marriage is the marriage that is "acceptable" and "decent"? That is an interesting yard stick. I don't think it will make Glennn happy.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

I am pointing out that indigenous men and women had very different ideas about what is right and wrong than modern American men and women have. Of course, our children grow up with our values (as do theirs).

I've never said otherwise. My point is that you refuse to determine what is right and what is wrong. Specifically, you are incapable of judging child marriage as a pairing of emotional, intellectual, and physical non equals. What would such a couple have in common? I don't think the answer will make you happy.

You are also incapable of judging female genital mutilation as an assault. By the way, you've been asked to challenge that point if you care to. In what context is genital mutilation not an assault on a girl? You fall on the side that condemns the girl rather than condemning the practice.

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I believe that judgments transcending culture, religion, and time can be made. That's all I meant to imply with that post.

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@perennialloner,

Quote:

I believe that judgments transcending culture, religion, and time can be made.

Who gets to make these judgments? This is the problem.

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@Glennn,

I agree with you on all of these issues Glennn. I have no trouble saying that child marriage is wrong, or that female genital mutilation is wrong. We have the same values on this.

The issue is how we should relate to indigenous cultures who disagree with us. Do we assume that we are right and they are wrong in some absolute sense? Or do we accept the differences and treat them as equals even though we disagree.

I am curious Glennn, you have such strong opinions about child marriage (or even about female circumcision). How much attempt have you made to understand the practice from the point of view of an indigenous culture. Could you sit down with an indigenous woman who supports these traditional practices as your equal? Could you accept that she has just as much wisdom as you do and that you are just as much a product of your culture as she is of hers?

I believe it is possible to do both; I can have strong moral standards for myself about what is right and wrong. And, at the same time, I can accept that my moral views aren't absolute truth and that other people who are my equals have equally strong views.

Western Culture is now the dominant culture in much of the world. I don't accept the idea that this is because of any moral superiority or access to absolute truth. It is because we had guns and trade which we used to brutally force our values on other cultures.

This doesn't mean that we can't accept the views of indigenous cultures as equally valid even when their values differ sharply from ours.

We are making a judgment on the practices of other cultures based on Western Cultural values. To me, this presents a problem... particularly given our history with the indigenous cultures we now sit in judgment upon.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

I agree with you on all of these issues Glennn. I have no trouble saying that child marriage is wrong, or that female genital mutilation is wrong. We have the same values on this.

However, you have come to distrust your own sensibilities concerning these issues; I have not.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

However, you have come to distrust your own sensibilities concerning these issues

Yes, this is true. The reason I have come to distrust my own sensibilities is that I have learned that indigenous cultures have quite different sensibilities. I am not willing to declare that my sensibilities are superior to theirs.

The idea that pre-colonial Africa and America (etc.) needed White people to come to save indigenous people from indigenous culture makes me very uncomfortable (and the idea that these cultures would have "evolved" to White culture on their own isn't any better).

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The issue is how we should relate to indigenous cultures who disagree with us. Do we assume that we are right and they are wrong in some absolute sense? Or do we accept the differences and treat them as equals even though we disagree.

Yes we do or otherwise we are living in a reality of moral relativism where anything can be morally acceptable because someone thinks it is so. Healthy societies don't flourish in such a reality and the "indigenous cultures" of which you write may have different moral standards than ours, but they don't operate under moral relativism.

It's not necessarily a question of how we treat these cultures or the people living in them as much as how we deal with the customs and behaviors we believe are morally unacceptable. I feel confident that the majority of mothers who not only agree with but encourage their daughters to undergo genital mutilation or marriage at age ten, love them, but that doesn't undo the harm of these practices. What we don't do is to march into these countries and make these people change their ways, but we have not only a right, but an obligation to not allow them to conduct these practices if they are living in our country; our society.

Along the way it's reasonable and and preferred that we attempt to educate them on why these practices they believe are beneficial are not. We can attempt to do this in their countries as well as our own, but while I believe we shouldn't attempt to prevent them from conducting them on their soil we must prevent them from doing so on ours.

Because any given culture develops traditions and practices that remain in place for hundreds if not thousands of years doesn't make them morally neutral, let alone beneficial to all the people involved in them. Slavery is, I think, a perfect example. If a culture not only accepts slavery as a practice but owes its continuance to it, I'm sorry but I'm not going to respect it or the slave owners and treat them as equal. I also don't think there is anything to be gained by sitting down with the slave owners to get their take on why they think it's perfectly OK to own people as if they are property. Again, whether or not we take steps to force such a culture to abandon slavery is a complex issue of geopolitical considerations, morality, and our appetite for military intervention and all that means for Americans, but we would never say about someone who has immigrated here from such a country and brought their slaves with them, "Well that's their culture and we need to respect it and allow them to keep these people as slaves."

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@saab,

saab wrote:

PS. Who the heck is giving Finn d´Abuzz a thumb down all the time?

Members of my A2K fan club. They love me but don't want me to get a swelled head. Smile

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

The reason I have come to distrust my own sensibilities is that I have learned that indigenous cultures have quite different sensibilities.

My sensibilities allow me to be considerate of the rights of others to not be senselessly harmed; yours do not. You believe that the words harmful and different are interchangeable. They are not.

The only apparent reasoning behind the continuance of the cultural practices in question here is: It is the way it has been done, and therefore, it is the way it will be done. This is mindless.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

My sensibilities allow me to be considerate of the rights of others to not be senselessly harmed; yours do not.

You are kidding yourself. If you live in a modern Western country, you probably have food to eat, cheap clothes to wear and electricity. You were likely born into privilege and you allow yourself to enjoy at least part of that. The modern world is based on privilege and access to money, and you benefit. The world wide median income is about $100 per month.

Fairness would suggest you give any more than that to people who are starving. And yet, our culture doesn't even offer this as a rational possibility.

There are people being harmed by the dominance of modern Western culture. You were born into privilege as part of the dominant culture of the world. You just shield yourself from the ways your culture harms other because you, yourself benefit from it.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

When a girl is married as part of her cultural tradition in a practice that has been part of a successful culture that has lasted hundreds of years... she is happy. Her mother (who experienced the same tradition) is happy. Her family is happy. She is part of a culture that has every right to exist.

Yet Western culture has a problem with this.

The same Western Culture supports a system of capitalism that says that these cultures that don't have resources will lose access to water and land. In Western Culture people from families with money have all the power. People who don't have money don't get health care, or access to food, or legal representation. People die (and that is a fact... people in indigenous communities are dying).

Do you see the problem here... you are worried that girls are getting married. Indigenous cultures are worried that they are shut out from resources, water and food and are dying. The number one predictor of life expectancy and infant mortality is income. Is this what you call "consideration"?

You are worried about marriage customs. They are worried about survival.

If you ask indigenous women what frightens them... their own culture or Western culture, what do you think they will say? Do you disagree with indigenous women when they say they prefer their own cultures? If you go to an indigenous community in Central America and ask them if their lives would be better if the White people had never showed up (I spent time in Guatemala and have had this exact discussion with people in a traditional indigenous community... you can guess the answer).

I don't think the superiority of your Western Culture makes as much sense as you pretend it does.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

You are kidding yourself. If you live in a modern Western country, you probably have food to eat, cheap clothes to wear and electricity. You were likely born into privilege and you allow yourself to enjoy at least part of that. The modern world is based on privilege and access to money, and you benefit. The world wide median income is about $100 per month.

Fairness would suggest you give any more than that to people who are starving. And yet, our culture doesn't even offer this as a rational possibility.

There are people being harmed by the dominance of modern Western culture. You were born into privilege as part of the dominant culture of the world. You just shield yourself from the ways your culture harms other because you, yourself benefit from it.

You are kidding yourself if you believe that stating that I have electricity, food to eat, and clothes to wear somehow answers my post to you. The same goes for your mention of the sonofabitchness of the American government. That has nothing to do with your inability to call female genital mutilation harmful, or your idea that adult males marrying emotionally, intellectually, and physically immature female children is a good thing. What do you believe they would have in common? Hmmm?

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

When a girl is married as part of her cultural tradition in a practice that has been part of a successful culture that has lasted hundreds of years... she is happy. Her mother (who experienced the same tradition) is happy.

You so easily overlook cultural indoctrination when it is not in the best interest of your argument. Girls will do exactly what they believe they are expected to do.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

You so easily overlook cultural indoctrination when it is not in the best interest of your argument. Girls will do exactly what they believe they are expected to do.

No, I am not at all overlooking cultural indoctrination. Cultural indoctrination is my point. Indigenous women are indoctrinated into their culture. You and I have been indoctrinated into our culture. You are no better than indigenous women. You are doing exactly what you believe you are expected to do in your society (just as you say they are doing).

You have no advantage over indigenous women... other than the fact that you are part of the dominant culture. You are just as subject to the indoctrination of your culture as they are.

I do not accept the idea that Western Culture is superior to other cultures.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

You have no advantage over indigenous women... other than the fact that you are part of the dominant culture. You are just as subject to the indoctrination of your culture as they are.

You are making the mistake of assuming that I am condemning a culture. I have made it abundantly clear to you that I condemn adult men marrying female children, and female genital mutilation. You are insisting that condemnation of these practices amounts to condemnation of the cultures in which these practices take place. You are mistaken about that.

I needn't be indoctrinated in order to recognize mutilation for what it is, or the inappropriateness of pairing an adult man with an immature girl.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

I don't see the difference between condemning cultural practices and condemning a culture. Does it mean anything if you tell indigenous women that they can keep their culture as long as they stop any practices of which Western culture doesn't approve? This is what White people have done to indigenous cultures for centuries. It doesn't seem to me that indigenous cultures have benefited from this.

And.... you keep minimizing the importance of your own indoctrination. You are a modern Western woman with thoughts and beliefs that are completely what you would expect from modern Western women. Do you really believe that your indoctrination has nothing to do with this?

You are making assumption that you, as a Western Women are somehow in touch with the truth, while indigenous women are "indoctrinated".

This is the definition of cultural superiority.

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Quote:

I needn't be indoctrinated in order to recognize mutilation for what it is, or the inappropriateness of pairing an adult man with an immature girl.

This bore repeating

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@snood,

snood wrote:

Quote:
I needn't be indoctrinated in order to recognize mutilation for what it is, or the inappropriateness of pairing an adult man with an immature girl.

This bore repeating

This is an illogical statement because it implies that someone who wasn't indoctrinated would hold the same belief (at least in this case) as a modern Western person. If you are making the claim that you don't need to be "indoctrinated" to arrive at Modern Western culture... but any other culture involves indoctrination, you are stating that Modern Western Culture is superior.

Are we glad that White people came to Africa and America to save indigenous women from the horrors of their own cultures? (The astute reader will note that I am focusing on child marriage rather than genital mutilation... part of the reason for that is that child marriage is much more common and is central to pre-colonial cultures in both Africa and the Americas).

The fact is that Glennn, and Snood, and I were all indoctrinated into modern Western culture. It is also a fact that many indigenous cultures in pre-colonial Africa and America who were not indoctrinated into modern Western culture had different ideas on even these two very contentious subjects.

That you "needn't be indoctrinated" isn't true. You were indoctrinated, and there is very strong evidence that had you not been born into modern Western Culture that your ideas would be dramatically different.

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Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

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