Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

@Olivier5,

Quote:

In France, the womb is not something that can stop the law. It's not seen as magic or holy. Eugenism is considered dangerous for the human race, and therefore reproduction should be legislated to prevent eugenism. It's all rational and logical, and it goes way beyond sex-based abortion: you can't chose any other characteristics of your future kid using any technique.

You're trying to build a straw man. Suddenly you are trying to paint me as one who is pro-eugenics. Here is what I said, and this time pay attention. That way you won't come across as confused and irrational.

To abort a fetus based on a preference for a particular gender reflects an ingrained discrimination toward one or the other. That is either immoral or indicative of a personal deficiency instilled by culture. Which do you think it is?

I even provided a link to show you exactly what I was talking about: Here it is again:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/women-pregnant-girls-pressured-abortions-india/story?id=15103950

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

These long discussions on practices that "some folks" find barbaric (FGM and abortion) are just tangents.

No, the long discussions on barbaric practices were the result of your defense of those practices. Your position on these practices is clearly contradictory. You condemn them, yet you support the rights of those who practice them.

It is also interesting that you characterize any challenge to your position--defending those who perform those practices--as just tangents. That's a convenient assessment of the discussion. You get to make a claim, and if anyone engages you concerning that claim, you portray them as having gone off on a tangent, even though you are offering opposition.

If you don't want any challenges to your points of view, then you should either keep quiet, or at least inform participants that you'd prefer to not debate the issue.

Oh, and I'm still wondering if you think that the use of spermicide or the morning-after-pill is murder. If you don't want to answer that, just say so, and I won't trouble you with the question anymore. I'll understand your reluctance to answer.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

A point of vocabulary: The term "gender" refers to a cultural construct. When you're speaking of whether a foetus is male or female, the right term to use is "sex", not "gender".

So do you think a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy based on the sex of her foetus, or not? Yes or no answer please.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Max is NOT defending excision anymore than you are defending eugenism. Chill out. This is not about "bad people" arguing against "good people", for God's ******* sake. It's about the different perspectives people have about morality.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

This is not about "bad people" arguing against "good people", for God's ******* sake.

Yeah, I know that, but it sounds to me like you're getting too emotionally invested in this. I don't mean to make you mad, "for god's ******* sake. Very Happy

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

So do you think a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy based on the sex of her foetus, or not? Yes or no answer please.

If she is on a mission to create a little master race of her own, then that is just as wrong as the culture that discriminates against one "sex" or the other, and thus pressures the woman to abort the female or male. Does that clear up your confusion?

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@Glennn,

Yes or no please, no caveats and approximations.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

In my opinion, it's wrong for her to treat her body that way, but it's still her body, and if she wants to abort, then that's her right. The reason for discrimination between sexes is one of culture. And I've already provided you with information concerning that issue.

How do you feel about cultures that promote sex discrimination in that way? Should the law get involved?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

Max is NOT defending excision

Yes, max IS defending the rights of people of different cultures to cut off the genitalia of girls. How could you have missed that?

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Okay, so we differ. I think sex-selective abortion is immoral for a series of reason (anti-eugenism, anti-discrimination, and the risk posed to society of a grave demographic imbalance between sexes) and the practice is banned in my country. Rightly in my view, but of course my moral sense is also a product of my culture. And yours is the product of your culture. There's no objectively right and wrong answer to these questions because they entail the balancing of several principles (eg individual freedom, respect for life, equality/non-discremination, society's interest...).

There's no mathematical equation telling us if individual liberty is more important than equality or fraternity. It's a question of what people value most. And it changes from ond society to the next and from one individual to the next.

QED

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@Glennn,

If you're defending a woman's right to chose the sex or eye colors of her child, you're defending her right to eugenism.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Oh for Christs sake, just stop it. I don't know how you equate abortion with racism or bigotry but you have derailed the thread to discuss an issue that you strongly disagree with. I get it, you are appalled at the notion that a woman would reject your seed. In China and India where boys are preferred, baby girls may be drowned or killed in some other fashion by folks who are too fastidious to consider abortion. I guess you think that's ok, can I get a freaking yes or no......I'm serious yes or no.
Actually I'm not serious, I hate listening to abortion bullshit arguments....I'm out....unless you want to discuss the reasons for racism or bigotry. Most women are keenly aware of how various cultures view the personhood of women, I'm not interested in all of the waffling that goes on when men folks start rationalizing the various reasons it's fine and dandy that women are treated like property in many cultures. Lucky for the men they still get freedom of choice and aren't subjected to primitive restrictive behaviour such as the outrageous restrictions forced on young girls and women.

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@glitterbag,

I'm totally in favour of a right to abortion, but I don't support a right to abortion based on the sex of the foetus.

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

Quote:

I'm out....unless you want to discuss the reasons for racism or bigotry. Most women are keenly aware of how various cultures view the personhood of women, I'm not interested in all of the waffling that goes on when men folks start rationalizing the various reasons it's fine and dandy that women are treated like property in many cultures.

Actually, it is most White liberal women who are keenly aware of how various cultures view the personhood of women. This is a narrative that is held by a specific group that is mainly white, educated and liberal. This isn't even a viewpoint that is universal among women in the United States. There are conservative women who should also have a voice.

This is one definition of bigotry... the assumption that your ideological perspective is, or should be, held by everyone else.

glitterbag wrote:

I'm out....

Ironically, you have said this three or four times now.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

If you're defending a woman's right to chose the sex or eye colors of her child, you're defending her right to eugenism.

I'll try to explain this so that you will have no problem understanding. My opinion is that if a woman seeks an abortion every time the eye color of her fetus is not to her liking, that is a sign of a mental problem. However, since you are unaware that eye color is determined sometime after birth, your hypothetical doesn't work. Before coming up with that scenario, you should have considered that you've never heard of such a thing.

If a woman chooses to abort every fetus that is not a girl, that also indicates a mental problem; one passed on to her by her culture. You've been told by myself--as well as Glitterbag--that sex discrimination when it comes to fetuses is a culturally instilled value. That's why I asked you how you feel about cultures that promote sex discrimination in that way, and whether or not you believe we should get the law get involved.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

It's those pesky white liberal women again....or is it the well-educated western white women who obviously have to be liberal at it again, upsetting all the apple carts and whimpering about 8 year old girls subjected to genital mutilation sans anesthesia with crude instruments. By any chance are you suggesting that conservative women are unaware of FGM or if they do know they don't care????

These bullshit glib breezy lazy statements nullify whatever point you are trying to make. It's painfully apparent you view white, well-educated liberal women as nitwits.....frankly you think anyone who doesn't march lockstep with your antiquated world view has to be well-educated, liberal, white and most importantly a WOMAN. I don't know what you find so frightening...well-educated women or just the garden variety female.

It's your laziness that makes you so unattractive as a 'debate' partner. Many people come here for discussion, not a debate......I avoid the folks who seem to think they are in a debate because honestly, it's tiresome. So, I'm 'out' when it comes to faux debate.....(it's my free-time and I'll use it as I see fit, what I won't do is indulge your fantasy of debate)

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@Glennn,

Quote:

You've been told by myself--as well as Glitterbag--that sex discrimination when it comes to fetuses is a culturally instilled value.

I'll go further: EVERY value is culturally instilled. Therefore, values are not universal but change from one culture to the next.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I'm totally in favour of a right to abortion, but I don't support a right to abortion based on the sex of the foetus.

I understand that view, I object to the argument that if others don't object to a woman's right to choose they must automatically support every conceivable reason some women choose abortion including some frankenstein distortion. I think it's a painfully difficult decision to make and although a few choose it frivolously (in my option only) its a serious, serious gut wrenching decision that few take lightly.

This is one of the reasons I hate discussing abortion and I'm disappointed that a thread on racism has once again (likes many other topics) become another
opportunity for anti-choice people to trivialize a woman's ability to pursue options regarding her health.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I'll go further: EVERY value is culturally instilled. Therefore, values are not universal but change from one culture to the next.

Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

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