10
   

Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

 
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 07:19 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Female genital mutilation is often done by women to girls.

I guess your point is that that makes it okay. Gotcha.
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 07:25 am
@Glennn,
That is a ridiculous assumption.
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 07:31 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You made this point 9 pages ago. We all got it.

That point was my response to your last post addressed to me. It was a simple assessment of your position. Forgive me if I made it too clear.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 07:34 am
@ossobucotemp,
Quote:
That is a ridiculous assumption

Really? Then perhaps you would care to enlighten everyone concerning the reason he would see fit to mention that.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 07:45 am
This thread is about bigotry, not about FGM. The question is whether modern Western Society is susceptible to bigotry. There is an interesting question about the role of our own cultural biases. There are interesting things about how modern cultures evaluate each other.

Female Genital Mutilation is the least interesting topic on this thread-- We all agree the practice should be banned. There is some discussion about whether it can possibly be appropriate in a pre-colonial culture... but we have had 9 pages on this and every opinion has been expressed even though we haven't reached agreement in a rather strange little tangent.

I would like to talk about bigotry in modern culture. In the US we have a divided culture, conservatives see bigotry in liberals, liberals see bigotry in conservatives. This is something that we all encounter ever day... which is why it is so difficult to talk about.

Churchill said that a fanatic is someone who "can't change his mind and can't change the subject. We have spent more than 9 pages talking about FGM (which isn't even the topic of this thread). So let's change the subject.

Glennn
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 08:14 am
@maxdancona,
Yes, you're quite right. It was silly of us to get sidetracked arguing the merits--or lack thereof--of female genital mutilation; it was a no-brainer from the git-go.

But then again, you did say that looking down on cultures that had child marriages meets the definition of "bigotry" being offered in this thread. I was simply showing you that it does not. You were just unable to condemn a practice without imagining that by doing so, you were also condemning a culture.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 08:22 am
@Glennn,
We covered that 8 pages ago (and anyone can go back and read it if they want). I have given you the last word on the subject. Now, let's move on.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 09:27 am
@Glennn,
I also agreed with Oliver and you.
It is almost only women who do it.
I have read about a study, which says more men than women are against FGM.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 09:43 am
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:

Quote:
Female genital mutilation is often done by women to girls.

I guess your point is that that makes it okay. Gotcha.

You're not very good at guessing, Glenn. I was just pointing that, contrary to popular belief on this thread, there ARE women who support FGM in this world: the very women who are doing it to their daughters... (duh)

I disagree with a number of ideas proposed by Max on this thread, but I think he is right that there's a need to take other cultures a little more seriously and with less ideological bias or condescendance. Bottom line: it's usually more complicated than you think.
glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 09:52 am
@Olivier5,
You shouldn't forget all the compelling reasons women have for this practice. Intact women are considered unclean and unfit to be wives. The rest of the village will shun this woman and refuse to even accept food from such an unclean person. I suppose if the only future for an intact woman is becoming a prostitute or starving and being treated like a filthy animal perhaps having your genitalia butchered becomes the lesser of two evils.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 10:25 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You're not very good at guessing, Glenn. I was just pointing that, contrary to popular belief on this thread, there ARE women who support FGM in this world

I've never said that that there aren't women who support female genital mutilation. So why did you address that post to me?
Quote:
there's a need to take other cultures a little more seriously and with less ideological bias or condescendance.

Sure. But we need to differentiate between cultural differences and the harming of a person's body; for instance, cutting the clitoris off a girl. Why do you believe that such a thing is complicated?
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 10:52 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier would you stop repeating the argument, please? There has been 10 pages of this back and forth now. The ideological narratives aren't budging and the same points are being repeated over and over. This talk about FGM is a dodge. It is safe because we are arguing about someone else's cultural beliefs rather than our own. Let's move on.

The more relevant conversation is about bigotry in modern culture... that is where we all live. And there is plenty of interesting intellectual ground here.

Most of the discussion on this thread is from the perspective of White educated liberals. Is anyone else willing to admit that this perspective is as susceptible to bias as any other perspective?




Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 11:49 am
@Glennn,
I was responding to this statement of yours:

Quote:
You cannot name any woman who has been a victim of the practice who has told you the value of being subjected to genital mutilation.



Quote:
But we need to differentiate between cultural differences and the harming of a person's body; for instance, cutting the clitoris off a girl. Why do you believe that such a thing is complicated?

I don't think that's complicated. I too consider it immoral to cut babies' or kids' genitalia, irrespective of their sex. I think it's a natural, almost instinctive opinion to have, but it's not a universal one.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 11:59 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The ideological narratives aren't budging and the same points are being repeated over and over.


I know you want to move on and so do, but I can't let this statement stand without comment. While repulsion for FGM may be used to support certain ideological premises, for me (and I imagine others participating in this thread) it is born of a sense of right and wrong (morality) and not ideology.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 12:01 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Most of the discussion on this thread is from the perspective of White educated liberals. Is anyone else willing to admit that this perspective is as susceptible to bias as any other perspective?

What part of " I think [Max] is right that there's a need to take other cultures a little more seriously and with less ideological bias or condescendance" don't you understand?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 12:11 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Would repulsion to abortion fall into the same category? That would be a more relevant example in our modern society.

In a case like abortion, where a significant portion of our society disagrees with the current social trend, it is difficult to see the difference between morality and ideology.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 12:25 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Would repulsion to abortion fall into the same category? That would be a more relevant example in our modern society.

In a case like abortion, where a significant portion of our society disagrees with the current social trend, it is difficult to see the difference between morality and ideology.


I'm against abortion on moral grounds. My ideology tends towards libertarian and for the longest time I let my ideology override my sense of morality. No more. Whether or not this means all of those who are Pro-choice arrive at that place through ideology rather than morality, I can't say, but it's very likely the case for those who say "I'm against abortion but I'm for a woman's right to choose"
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 12:28 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You are making the distinction between morality and ideology. How you make this distinction depends on your ideology.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 12:29 pm
@maxdancona,
Your point is muddy.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 12:42 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You cannot name any woman who has been a victim of the practice who has told you the value of being subjected to genital mutilation.
_____________________________________________

Earlier in this thread, maxdancona suggested that there are mothers who have had this procedure done themselves and want the same procedure for their daughters, and that it seemed probable to him that they believe there is a benefit. However, when asked to provide reference to one of these women who can explain the benefit of having her clitoris cut off, he replied that he had never met one of these mothers.

So the statement you've quoted from my post was me reminding him that his assumptions concerning the benefits of female genital mutilation to the female was based on nothing.
 

 
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