10
   

Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 03:50 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
(and it goes along with the theme of my willingness to criticize my own Wink ).


You take pride in this and that's fine, but it certainly doesn't mean your criticism of your own is valid.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 03:58 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You take pride in this and that's fine, but it certainly doesn't mean your criticism of your own is valid.


I respect it when people question or criticism their own political ideology (or cultural beliefs). In our time of political bubbles in the US, this seems an infrequent occurrence. Of course making a point that steps outside of your political bubble doesn't make it valid, but I still think it is commendable.

NPR had an interesting story recently on the political bubbles. I forget which show it was, but it talked about someone who hacked his own Facebook feed to give him stories with opposing views. They pointed out that there is a social cost to questioning or disagreeing with any part of your political ideology. When a liberal suggests that maybe the conservatives have a point on an issue... there is Hell to pay. The opposite is also true.

People confuse ideological thought with critical thought.
ossobucotemp
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 04:10 pm
@saab,
I completely agree with you, saab, as I've probably fully read several hundred books on Italy, that I still have; and read a lot of others from mostly all over, places I've never been.
Too bad I don't have a photographic memory.

Do you know the a2ker Foofee?
I am his or her opposite.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 04:22 pm
@ossobucotemp,
Osso, you have traveled a bunch (if I remember correctly) have you ever had this experience?

When I am in Latin America, people often ask me why America is so "racist". I respond that it is the same reason that Mexico (or Guatemala or wherever) is racist. Invariably, they will explain that their country doesn't experience racism the way America does.

From my American point of view, this is ridiculous. Offices in Mexico are cleanly divided by skin tone (even physically), the management is light skinned, the workers are slightly darker. People with dark skin work, generally, in manual labor. I used to laugh at the Billboards for banks, that always feature smiling happy White Families (I am not talking about tourist areas here, I am talking about Mexico proper). The people in the Billboards don't look anything like the people in the streets, nor do the professionals in the bank look anything like their customers. Many Americans would interpret this as racism.

The truth is, around the world people talk about race in America (and sex in America and anything else in America). People in Europe and Latin America don't understand it at all the way we understand these issues.

When African-Americans travel to Europe, they often experience what they consider to be racism. I know people personally who report this, and it is also well documented (and you can google it). The Europeans in most of these countries don't at all understand it.

So no, People don't learn what it means to be an American from watching TV.


ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 04:55 pm
@maxdancona,
I haven't considered tv since I moved and gave mine to the guy who helped me once in a while, circa '2005.

by now I haven't been to Mexico for a long while. I liked Guatemala and was manifestly ignorant the week I was there; a friend had set up the trip. Soon enough I became embarrassed when I learned more, arriving home, re what was going on.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 05:14 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
It is interesting to see the defense mechanisms used to avoid even considering other points of view.

It is more interesting to see you interpret someone's negative response to adult men marrying immature girls as bigotry. That is silly. The same goes for female genital mutilation. You interpret opposition to that as a belief in cultural superiority. You're going to have to learn to accept that a negative response to such practices is based on the practice, and not the culture.

But more to the point, you misspoke again. You incorrectly assume that others here have avoided considering other points of view. I think you have a problem with people who have considered the points of view being discussed here, and have arrived at a different conclusion from yours.
Quote:
I believe that the practice as brutal and cruel and should be banned from society. The fact that anyone deliberately or mistakenly disagrees with me about what my own opinion is rather funny.

Perhaps there would be less misunderstanding of your position if when criticism of female genital mutilation is voiced, you wouldn't claim that such criticism is the result of our Western cultural indoctrination.
Quote:
I believe that the practice as brutal and cruel and should be banned from society.

Now just for the record, are you saying that your condemnation of female genital mutilation is not simply the result of your cultural indoctrination, and therefore cannot be objective?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 05:15 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
When a liberal suggests that maybe the conservatives have a point on an issue... there is Hell to pay.


True and yet in this instance you've been an equal opportunity critic based on your apparent belief that you sit above all views, comforted by your moral relativism and multi-culturalism.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 06:05 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Geez Finn, I have never said that my views "sit above all others". I express and defend my opinions, and I respect people who do the same.

On the other hand, I am getting these personal swipes from both you and Glennn.... that does make me a little proud Wink. Does anyone else do this for you two?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 06:13 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Geez Finn, I have never said that my views "sit above all others". I express and defend my opinions, and I respect people who do the same.

On the other hand, I am getting these personal swipes from both you and Glennn.... that does make me a little proud Wink. Does anyone else do this for you two?



Of course you haven't but that is clearly the impression you are giving to me and a few other contributors to this thread.

It's nothing personal for me. You are an internet avatar, not a friend or associate.

You might want to lay off the "That makes me chuckle..." comments though if you don't want things to get "personal"
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 06:22 pm
@Glennn,
We are moving on... it seems like we have both explained our opinions fully, and that we aren't going to make any progress on the discussion of FGM. We are getting repetitive (which is why I am moving on).

I think you understand my main assertion (which I think I made clear on page 3 or so) is that all moral values are a cultural phenomenon rather than a fact of nature. You disagree with this. You didn't convince me. I think we can move on.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. As I said before, I enjoy these discussions with you... hopefully that is why we are both here. It is very rare indeed that anyone even loses an internet argument generally what happens is that people end up where they started. This doesn't mean that these discussions can't be informative. You have helped me think about these issues a little more deeply. Thank you.

Sturgis gave the most thought provoking response to my ideas here. The Petri Dish metaphor is one that I am still working on. My interaction with Sturgis made this thread worthwhile for me (although I did enjoy discussion this with you too and I am glad you pushed back so hard).

But, to answer your question... yes, I believe that any moral value is a human construct and is based on our history, our upbringing and our societal narrative. And I believe that this true even in the case of FGM (although I concede that this is an uncomfortable position for an American liberal to take).

I don't want to keep going in circles. We are upsetting Snood unnecessarily.

I am interested in relating this to the political bubbles we have in America right now. I think this is new ground... it is something different from the circles we have been tracing in the past 8 pages.

Anyone who would like to move on and have this discussion (which is relevant to the general topic of the OP and first couple of pages)... I am interested in engaging.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 06:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
It's nothing personal for me. You are an internet avatar, not a friend or associate.


We are spending a fair amount of time interacting. Hopefully you are enjoying our interactions... or I don't know you are here? I am here to have conversations that interest me with people who challenge me (rather than people who agree with me). I don't really understand why people spend so much time in discussions they claim to not be enjoying... it is not as if defending "truth" here is a very valuable use of time with the limited audience here.

So, I enjoy my discussions with you... which is why I keep coming back. In that endeavor, I would consider you at least on the level of associate Wink And you are one of the people here who I would gladly buy a beer if I had the opportunity.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 06:27 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I don't want to keep going in circles. We are upsetting Snood unnecessarily.


Hallelujah! Smile
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 06:29 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
So, I enjoy my discussions with you... which is why I keep coming back. In that endeavor, I would consider you at least on the level of associate Wink And you are one of the people here who I would gladly buy a beer if I had the opportunity.


As do I and perhaps after we enjoyed a beer or two together I would be more sensitive to what comments I make can be taken personally, but in the meantime...
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 07:45 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
But, to answer your question... yes, I believe that any moral value is a human construct and is based on our history, our upbringing and our societal narrative. And I believe that this true even in the case of FGM . . .

It is good to hear you say that any value placed on the practice of female genital mutilation is based on nothing but a human construct. Any mindless crime against a person's body has no moral or cultural value.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 07:49 pm
@Glennn,
Circles Glennn.
Glennn
 
  3  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 08:05 pm
@maxdancona,
Conclusions, maxdancona.

Concerning the practice of female genital mutilation, you cannot name the value. You cannot name any woman who has been a victim of the practice who has told you the value of being subjected to genital mutilation. Your position has no value.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 12:29 am
@Glennn,
Female genital mutilation is often done by women to girls. It's enforced by the women themselves.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 02:31 am
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:

I'm trying to describe a person, and am confused as to what term to use.

What word do you use to describe someone who out of ignorance, lack of exposure to others, doesn't express a hatred or dislike of other groups, but believes in the other groups innate inferiority?


Superiority Complex (disorder)
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 03:45 am
@Glennn,
Agree...
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Jul, 2017 07:08 am
@Glennn,
You made this point 9 pages ago. We all got it. Saab agrees with you. Let's move one.
 

 
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