10
   

Bigot? Racist? Something Else?

 
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 10:39 am
@saab,
Some of the greatest harm comes at the intersection of cultures. When a powerful culture first comes in contact with a weaker indigenous culture, the weaker culture suffers.

I do believe that the Native American cultures, which had child marriage, were valid cultures and provided a decent life. Child marriage within the culture seemed to flourish. Women had health, protection and access to resources. Children were raised. These were real functioning societies that deserved respect. Once the European's showed up, these societies were under social pressure both in terms of the ability to practice their traditions and in terms of resources.

It was at this point that these cultures started breaking down. The European colonizers used this breakdown to justify wiping out the traditional cultures.

There is more than one narrative here. The indigenous narratives have largely been silenced.
saab
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 02:37 pm
@maxdancona,
Yes I read the article and it made me very sad.
Just as you always refrerring to indigenous women or tribes. In many of the African countries you will find intellegent and well educated people. You will also find wise people even if they had none or little schooling. You put them down on a level far below what they deserve. I have used it in answering you and it was wrong.

These women who are for FGM are educated enough to get anti biotics when it happens. In Egypt less than 50% are analphabetes. Which means they have a certain and also good education.
That is why not just Egyptian women, but women everywhere should be help
to learn about the dangers with FGM - that there are a much higher risk their babies will die and that they will die in childbirth.

We western women have had to learn what you do and do not do during a pregnacy. I do not think we would accept a behavior which could cause the
death of the baby or the mother.
But for you it is perfectly ok as long as it is a tradition. I think every mother and child should have to best possibilities by the birth.
If the mother dies there are many who will miss her for a long time and they might not even get over it.
Her parents and her siblings, her husband who never got over it. Her friends who for years got tears in their eyes when talking about her. I am sure people in Africa also can mourn for years when loosing a loved one.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 02:48 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are misusing the term "double standard".

No, I'm not. You did criticize Western culture, claiming that its bias is driven by something other than logic and reason. Yet you fail to criticize a cultural practice which is driven by other than logic and reason. That is called a double standard, unless you care to explain the logic and reason behind the practice of cutting the clitoris off girls.
Quote:
You are not an objective judge of right or wrong; particularly when it comes to indigenous cultures.

This is nothing more than you trying to justify giving people the right to cut the clitoris off girls by virtue of the fact that is a custom; either that, or you are truly under the impression that your cultural indoctrination prevents you from recognizing needless mutilation as needless mutilation. The fact is, you cannot formulate an explanation of the benefit experienced by a woman who has undergone such a mutilation of her flesh.
Quote:
Just like any culture, we all grow up with a strongly cultural bias; a mythology.

And what myth is responsible for instilling a sense of value concerning mutilating genital flesh? I mean, what cultural story is told that concludes with, ". . . and that's why it is good to cut off the clitoris of females"?
Quote:
That is why you keep bringing up "female genital mutilation" incessantly ignoring almost every other issue.

Ignoring almost every other issue? Well, I recall you saying that those of us from Western culture fixate on certain practices such as female circumcision while accepting others such as poverty and starvation. I pointed out that you should not have presumed to speak for others since you have no idea what they accept. Anyway, as long as you defend the rights of people to cut off the clitoris of girls, I will most likely continue to challenge your position.
Quote:
You seem to be implying that this is an easy issue that can be addressed in a simplistic way.

It isn't.

It is. As evidence of the simplicity of the issue, I would point out your inability to state what benefit a girl experiences from having her clitoris cut off. All you have offered is your assurance that a woman who has had her clitoris cut off could surely set me straight by sharing with me the fulfillment she has experienced from the procedure.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  5  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 02:52 pm
Or, maybe I don't think my morality makes me superior......maybe I'm just a person who doesn't want her genitalia hacked off or worry my family might stone me to death if I was sexually assaulted by a crazed maniac. You know what I mean? You MAY not understand because your go to position is always puffing about how life is great for women but not for men or 'moral superiority'. You are trying to present your viewpoint as exceptionally perceptive and open to great ideas while everyone else is toooooooooo provincial and immature to even grasp the concept of anything other than that they have been spoonfed.

I am honored to bask in the glow of your flaming ball of knowledge.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 03:03 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
So, I think I'm missing something......if female mutilation is simply a custom that makes some people happy.......how about honor killings????? Or am I being overly sensitive because I was born into a Western culture which closes my mind over a custom that urges girls to be obedient and not buck the system?

Before answering you, I'm going to have refer to my Western Culture Dictionary to make sure that you--as a woman--have not overstepped your bounds by asking the questions contained in your post. If it turns out that you have, then I would suggest that you PM a male member of this site and have him post your questions for you. Smile
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 03:13 pm
@Glennn,
Damn Glennn, you made me laugh out loud. I think I just startled the dog.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 03:15 pm
@maxdancona,
You have been making two distinct arguments here:One in favor of moral relativism and the other against the notion that Western culture might be superior to others. On the one hand you reject the idea of objective morality while on the other, you employ it to criticize Western culture.

I'm not even sure there is any arguing Western culture is superior to all others, simply that certain practices of any culture can be considered objectively immoral.

You've asked who gets to make these judgements, and the answer is very simple...we all do. If someone here believes genital mutilation is immoral, so what?

I haven't seen anyone suggesting we need to send forces into the nations where such mutilation is practiced and put an end to it.

However if our society finds the practice abhorrent (and it does) members of the cultures that embrace it, will not and should not be allowed to practice it if they wish to enjoy the benefits of living within our society.

snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 03:24 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

Damn Glennn, you made me laugh out loud. I think I just startled the dog.

'Startle the Dog'.....
could be a punk rock group
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 03:53 pm
@snood,
Hahahahahaha ha. It would be perfect.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 04:14 pm
@snood,
The group title has rhythm already..

ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 04:35 pm
Long ago and far away, I was a serious catholic girl, until after some transition time, I stopped. So many decades have passed that I forget some of the teachings. Much now reminds me of ducks and imprinting.
On the other hand, I agree with some of it.

What was the natural law, again?

I don't mean to discomfort people, am not mocking them.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 05:17 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I agree with you, Finn (other than that you are misstating my criticism of Western culture a little).

Yes, we in the West all agree that Female genital mutilation is abhorrent. We have every right to keep it out of our society. No one here disagree with that, that isn't the issue. The fact that other cultures embrace the practices is irrelevant to the question of what our culture accepts.

I am an American born and bred. I belong to this culture. I understand the narratives, the values, the meanings of American customs. I know what marriage, and race and gender mean in America (better than a Chinese person, or a Russian, or a African, or even a Swede would understand). And I participate in my own culture in ways that I care about. I work, I go with my neighbors. I participate in Politics. In short, I belong to the American society.

I have every right to criticize my own culture and I am as knowledgeable about what it means to be an American as anyone else. I belong to this culture, and this culture belongs to me... and what happens in my culture effect me and my children. I don't have to have any opinion about what happens in other cultures to care about my own culture.

I don't think you and I are really disagreeing. I believe I have a greater right, and responsibility to change my own culture than I have to change other people's cultures. You and I would probably even agree with some of the specific criticisms I have of American culture.

I don't think this is a double standard.





glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jul, 2017 08:20 pm
@ossobucotemp,
ossobucotemp wrote:

The group title has rhythm already..




Do you remember Rufus Thomas song from '65? Walking the dog?

Baby's back, dressed in black
Silver buttons all down her back 🎶
High, low, tipsy toe
She broke a needle and she can't sew 🎶

saab
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 02:11 am
@maxdancona,
Not so long ago segregation was part of American culture.
Should that have been kept as some white not so superior people found it a good thing?????
Isn´t life so much better for everybody without segregation?

As a matter of fact I think most Swedes have a good knowledge about American
culture in comparasing with most USAmericans regarding Swedes culture.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 06:06 am
@saab,
Saab,

When you are challenged with a different point of view, you seem to attack first rather than discuss. There are actually some interesting ideas to explore; this is a topic with which I have some interesting first hand experience. I would interested in exploring them (the mud slinging doesn't interest me).

I am questioning some of your ideas you seem to have put into a stereotype; do you really think if I challenge you on one issue I am going to disagree with you on allow other issues? Human beings are much more complex that you are pretending... we don't fit into these narrow little boxes. I grew up in an interracial family (in a time when this was even more rare); I am White, some of my siblings are African-American. I went to civil rights marches as a child. I married into an interracial family. I have raised children who are Hispanic.

And I still work on civil rights. I spend weekends working on immigrant issues, and I take off work at times to talk to elected officials... these are issue I care very deeply about.

The point is that what most Swede have about American culture are stereotypes. You don't really understand what it is like to be American, or how Americans think. To get that type of understanding you need to live here and be a part of our culture.

You have a simplistic view of what it means to be an American; a caricature. None of us fit into your narrow little box.
saab
 
  3  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 07:16 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You have a simplistic view of what it means to be an American; a caricature. None of us fit into your narrow little box.


Have I said anything about how I see an American?
No I have not, and certainly do not see Americans as caricatures.
I would never judge other Americans according to the way you are.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 07:53 am
@saab,
Let's talk about what the phrase "female genital mutilation" means to White people. Strangely the focus of this discussion have been about indigenous cultures... something that none of us know anything about. I am pretty sure that female circumcision has never been a part of any White culture. I think that at any point of our cultural heritage, inflicting this on White women would have been "barbaric".

Do why do White people bring the topic in a thread talking about bigotry and racism (other than the fact that it is safe to discuss practices from indigenous cultures)?

Both American Conservatives and Liberal Conservatives like to bring up the topic of "female genital mutilation". Because both sides see how "barbaric" it is, it is a great topic for scoring political points. But the meaning of the practice; how it is used to push a political ideology, is quite different.

To American Conservatives (and I suspect their European counterparts), "female genital mutilation" is a way to show how immigrant culture, and particularly Muslim culture, is a threat to the American and European way of life. It is part of an ideology that says we need to close borders, strengthen immigration controls and watch mosques.

I will let Finn (who is an American Conservative) tell me if I have this wrong about American Conservatives, and I will respect his opinion if he corrects me. But, I think I am correct.

To American liberals "female genital mutilation" is a way to talk about patriarchy. It is an example to support the narrative that men have always oppressed women to the benfit of men. It is part of an ideology that says we need to ensure abortion rights, regulate healthcare, and end rape culture in popular media.

I will let Glennn and Snood tell me if I am wrong about American liberals.

Americans on both sides use "female genital mutilation", mainly to further their political ideology. It is a convenient talking point. It is useful because it shuts down discussion; liberals accuse conservatives of being barbaric and conservatives accuse liberals of being barbaric. No one ever questions their own beliefs or considers how someone outside their ideological bubble might have a valid point.

That is why we are talking about it in a thread about bigotry.
Glennn
 
  3  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 09:11 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Strangely the focus of this discussion have been about indigenous cultures...

But you are the one who introduced the subject of indigenous cultures into this discussion. Remember?
Quote:
Do why do White people bring the topic in a thread talking about bigotry and racism

You brought up the issue of adult men marrying immature girls. And now you are taking issue with the fact that someone expanded on the subject of girls being subjected to unreasonable practices?
Quote:
Because both sides see how "barbaric" it is, it is a great topic for scoring political points.

But I am neither democrat nor republican. You insist that anyone who determines that the practice of female genital mutilation is barbaric and unfair to girls is motivated by other than a concern for the individual. Your suspicion is unfounded. I am thinking only of the individual who is being subjected to the removal of a sexual organ.
Quote:
Americans on both sides use "female genital mutilation", mainly to further their political ideology. It is a convenient talking point. It is useful because it shuts down discussion

It didn't shut down this discussion. You claimed that no one has a right to condemn the practice of female genital mutilation because they don't understand how their aversion to such a practice is the result of their cultural indoctrination, and that their condemnation of the practice makes them a bigot. We have been discussing it ever since.
Quote:
No one ever questions their own beliefs or considers how someone outside their ideological bubble might have a valid point.

You have been asked several times to explain the validity of the practice of cutting the clitoris off girls. And all you've offered is the assurance that a woman who has had it done could speak to me of the benefit or fulfillment she experienced from having her clitoris cut off. And then I pointed out that that is only an assumption on your part since it is a fact that you have never had such a discussion with a woman.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 09:34 am
@glitterbag,
sort of...
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  4  
Reply Sun 2 Jul, 2017 09:48 am
Being against FGM has hardly anything to do with political party you belong to.
It has been against the law since 1982 in Sweden when it happened to be a Social Democratic government. Also in 1982 it was a conservative government.
Mostly we have noticed FGM after we have had emmigrants and refugees coming to Sweden.
Year 2014 there were around 90 000 FGM women in Sweden. . Often it is done before they come to Sweden as they know it is forbidden. The pressure of the relatives in the homecountry is too big.
There are about 500 000 FGM women living in USA. So per capita there are
many many more in Sweden than in USA.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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