8
   

7 Missing after Destroyer hits Merchant Ship

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Aug, 2017 06:17 pm
@emmett grogan,
emmett grogan wrote:
I'm tired of speaking with oralloy today,

My sympathies. It must be quire exhausting to pretend superior knowledge when the other guy actually knows the subject.


emmett grogan wrote:
but I'll post this one for him here because he hasn't ragged your nerves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp-class_amphibious_assault_ship

The Wasp class is a class of Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) amphibious assault ships operated by the United States Navy. Based on the Tarawa class, with modifications to operate more advanced aircraft and landing craft, the Wasp class is capable of transporting almost the full strength of a United States Marine Corps Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU), and landing them in hostile territory via landing craft or helicopters. All Wasp-class ships were built by Ingalls Shipbuilding, at Pascagoula, Mississippi, with the lead ship, USS Wasp, commissioned on 29 July 1989. Eight Wasp-class ships were built, and as of June 2017, all eight are active.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/USS_Wasp_%28LHD_1%29.jpg/300px-USS_Wasp_%28LHD_1%29.jpg

Hold on here. Walter has assured me that a ship isn't an aircraft carrier unless the letters CVN are painted on it.

Those aircraft carriers clearly are not aircraft carriers.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2017 08:48 am
Navy Ships Kept at Sea Despite Training and Maintenance Needs, Admiral Says
Quote:
WASHINGTON — After a string of deadly accidents in the western Pacific, a top admiral acknowledged on Thursday that the Navy had knowingly operated warships there despite a growing number of major training and maintenance shortfalls — all to meet increasing operational demands.

An unusual hearing of two House Armed Services subcommittees offered no new information about what caused four Navy mishaps in the western Pacific this year, including two fatal collisions between Navy destroyers and foreign cargo ships that left 17 sailors dead. Those accidents remain under investigation.

But the hearing painted a disturbing portrait of fatigued crews and commanders on a shrinking overseas fleet saddled with constant deployments — including confronting an expansionist Chinese military and keeping vigil on a nuclear saber-rattling North Korea — with little time left to train or to repair aging ships.

“The Navy is caught between unrelenting demands and a shortage of ships,” John H. Pendleton, a director of the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, told lawmakers. The office has chronicled the Navy’s woes in several recent reports.

Contrite Navy officials conceded that they had accepted increasing risks with uncertified ships and crews, despite repeated warnings from congressional watchdogs and the Navy’s own experts. In case after case, Navy ship commanders and their chains of command approved waivers to expiring certifications of standards so long as temporary steps were put in place to mitigate the risks.
... ... ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Nov, 2017 07:55 am
The Navy determined in its latest reports that the crew and leadership on board failed to plan for safety, to adhere to sound navigation practices, to carry out basic watch practices, to properly use available navigation tools, and to respond effectively in a crisis.

“Many of the decisions made that led to this incident were the result of poor judgment and decision making of the commanding officer,” the report concluded. “That said, no single person bears full responsibility for this incident. The crew was unprepared for the situation in which they found themselves through a lack of preparation, ineffective command and control, and deficiencies in training and preparations for navigation.”

Source: Navy Office of Information

Collision Report for USS Fitzgerald and USS John S. McCain Collisions (pdf)
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Nov, 2017 10:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I just can't understand how they were so irresponsible. When I served, I watched the captain pull officers off of responsible positions, if he determined they were not able to perform their duties adequately.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2017 08:59 am
@edgarblythe,
U.S. Navy rolls out new measures after deadly Asia-Pacific crashes
Quote:
PATTAYA, Thailand (Reuters) - The U.S. Navy has introduced new measures aimed at avoiding a repeat of two deadly crashes in the Asia Pacific region involving its warships and commercial vessels following a review of its practices, the Seventh Fleet commander said on Monday.
[...]
Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of an international fleet review in the Thai seaside town of Pattaya, Sawyer said the Navy made “circadian rhythm” sleep guidelines a requirement and a new group, the Naval Surface Group Western Pacific, has been training officers at the fleet’s headquarters in Yokosuka, south of Tokyo, Japan.

“This is a team that is now in Yokosuka and they’re charged with doing the man, train, equip aspect of our operations with surface ships,” Sawyer told reporters.

“The second thing we have done is Automatic Identification System and that’s a system onboard ships that puts out signal and it tells whoever is receiving that signal the course, speed and identification of the ship,” he said.

“The third thing is that we are working on the circadian rhythm onboard the ships” to make the sailors more alert.
[...]
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 10:12 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Navy Seeks to Prosecute Top Officers for Crashes
Quote:
WASHINGTON — The commanding officers of two Naval destroyers that collided with commercial vessels in the western Pacific last year, killing a total of 17 American sailors, will face court-martial charges that could include negligent homicide, the Navy said on Tuesday.
[...}
Adm. Frank Caldwell, one of the lead officers assigned to the investigation, determined that the charges could include dereliction of duty, hazarding a vessel and negligent homicide, the Navy said in a statement.

In the coming weeks, the two commanding officers and three other sailors aboard the Fitzgerald will most likely be charged during a hearing that determines whether they will be taken to trial in a court-martial. If found guilty, they could face jail time.
... ... ...
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Jan, 2018 10:44 pm
I just saw that. I feel a bit of sympathy for the men they charged, but I agree a trial is in order.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 08:08 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The commanding officer on a ship has pretty much absolute authority and absolute responsibility. One of the few places where power and accountability are so tightly bound. The trial is pretty much a formality. By Navy rules, they're already guilty. It will be interesting to see who the other people being taken to trial are. The Navigators are likely on that list.

Edit: More details from Stars and Stripes.
Quote:
Two lieutenants and one lieutenant junior grade from the Fitzgerald are facing similar charges. The Navy did not name those officers being charged.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 08:28 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
The Navigators are likely on that list.
Since I've been one: why do you think so?
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 09:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Responsible for training of helmsmen, watches, OOD's, sonar techs, fire control techs, etc. Everyone who should have been watching the contacts except the watch officer would report up through the navigator and he should have had a significant impact on the watch officer as well. You have engineer room negligence and people get killed, the CO and the Eng are responsible, you have negligence issues on the Conn, the CO and the Nav are responsible.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 10:37 am
@engineer,
Ok, I was just doing the navigation ... and gave advice for the next courses, made the weather, calculated ETA's, water depth, etc etc
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 07:35 pm
@engineer,
Navigating the ship and control of the helm & engines are different things. I can recall several such incidences in which the fault (and post event accountability) were that of the Conning officer and not the Navigator. The Court Martial process is a judicial one based on evidence, and not nearly as foreordained as you imply. The Captain's responsibilities and accountability are, however very broad, as you wrote, embracing the training and performance of the entire bridge team. Hard to see how he/she could escape a finding o9f Guilt.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 07:57 pm
@georgeob1,
There are four main departments on a typical US Navy ship, engineering, navigation, weapons and supply. The Navigator is not just the guy plotting courses, he is the guy in charge of the department that operates the front half of the ship. Every qualifying OOD will go through the Nav to get to the captain. Every fire control technician (the people who track contacts), every quartermaster, every lookout watch. If the Navy is pushing for systematic failure to maintain standards, the first person on the hook would be the captain, but the next head on the block would be he Nav. Not saying that is what is happening here, but that's where I would put my money.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Jan, 2018 11:02 pm
@engineer,
I've just ancient knowledge how it worked in the German navy until the 80's and only with smaller ships. (Teeny-weeny , compared to those with a crew of 6,000 like george was commanding Wink )
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 07:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I don't know that they are going after the Nav, but the captain, two Lt and a Lt jg? The JG is probably the watch officer. One of the Lt could be the Nav. Not really sure. I can't really think of who the other officer would be. The chain of command really isn't that long.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 09:40 am
@engineer,
I believe the matters now heading to Courts Martial will depend a great deal on the particular facts in each instance. This is appropriate as these are judicial proceedings and the rules of evidence apply.

With respect to maintaining accountability and addressing the underlying issues, the Navy summarily relieved the Commanding officers of each ship soon after each event. That's appropriate and beneficial, as the Captain's responsibility for maneuvering the ship and setting standards for the bridge teams is direct and beyond dispute. Not much later, after the preliminary results of as more widespread investigation, they relieved the Fleet Commander for a failure to establish and enforce training standards among deployed vessels.

I have since learned that the Navy is now focused on increased training effectiveness in basic areas such as these, and accepts that the long term decline in the number of operating ships, together with nearly fixed forward deployment loads led to a perhaps insidious lapse in basic training in some fundamental areas. There are three basic phases to any ship's operations - maintenance. training and forward deployment. The first is hard to compress, and, if the third is fixed, training time suffers: over time the effects are compounded.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 10:20 am
I've been several times in situations like before (!!!) the Fitzgerald’s collision.
As a navigator ... I got stress then, because the course and speed was changed frequently, by the officer of the watch and/or the ship's captain, and any of my previous reckoning became wasted paper.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 10:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I think people who haven't experienced the dynamics on a darkened bridge at night, shifting from the radar scope to peering at the dim lights of ships ( and others from objects on the shore line of a channel), along with the distractions of helm orders & responses etc. naturally have a hard time visualizing how such a collision could possibly occur.

The same observation could be made about many aircraft accidents, prominently including the event about a decade ago in which a JAL aircraft landed in the water, 1/2 mile short of the runway in San Francisco in daylight. Such things do indeed occur, though not very often. My experience has been that, in both situations, the factors that cause them occur fairly frequently, but are usually intercepted by those involved. However, it's hard for those who haven't experienced it to either understand or visualize.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jan, 2018 11:05 am
@georgeob1,
Well, we did (real) mine-sweeping from the "Traffic Separation Scheme" (TSS) German Bight towards what is nowadays the "Harwich Deep Water Channel".
That was interesting in many respects.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Jan, 2018 05:58 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, we did (real) mine-sweeping from the "Traffic Separation Scheme" (TSS) German Bight towards what is nowadays the "Harwich Deep Water Channel".
That was interesting in many respects.


The "real" part particularly. It concentrates the mind wonderfully.
 

 
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