A breath of fresh air from an Imam

@saab,

So are all rules. Who do you think the nuns all answer to?

One of my neighbours wears the headscarf, she doesn't wear a veil over her face, but she covers everything else up. She is a very strong independent woman, there's no way she's being told what to do. I've met her husband, and she does all the talking.

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@izzythepush,

A few years ago when we lived in Bristol we had a knock on the door, it was an Avon lady. We didn't want to buy anything but she was so nice we asked her in for a cup of tea. She was called Azmina and she was completely charming. A smiling, laughing cheerful young woman. She told us that she and her husband were nominally Muslim but they liked a beer or two. She would never wear a veil over her head, she said. Her father worried what people would think (especially her mother) but that didn't stop him coming round for beers and bacon sandwiches. She laughed and said "he says he'll just pray 5 times and then it'll be all right".

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@saab,

You figure the rules in christianity were made by women? There was the odd saint or two or even three that had some pull on some matters.

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@ossobucotemp,

Re that early post of mine, the nun photo wasn't taken by the Imam, if anyone is wondering.

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@ehBeth,

Agreed. (Don't get me started, and I don't mean that in a nasty way)

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@izzythepush,

The Muslim women I know do not wear a headscarf either, but have told me they do when praying.
There are many young women who wear a headscarf and are dressed very modern in tight jeans and high healed shoes.

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@ossobucotemp,

The habits of nuns in the early Middle Ages were very similar to what women were wearing. Nuns should wear something in moderate colours and under no circumstances stick out amongst the population.
Fashion has changed all the time during these centuries, but very little to nothing what nuns´habits are concerned.
So what nuns wore in Middle Ages was a for that time a practical and correct habit. and probably nothing to do with saints.

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@saab,

I know, but the fact remains that most women in the West who choose to cover up do so voluntarily.

The treatment of women in countries like Saudi Arabia is something else entirely.

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@izzythepush,

Just read in a Danish paper - Kristeligt Dagblad - that the burkini is a great hit in UK and forbidden in France and is also part of the "fights of cultur".
Rachid Nekkaz a very rich businessman even pays fines for women in burkini
In Norway several schools prefer the girls use burkini when learning to swim instead of not learning. A good idea.

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@saab,

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/24/18/378B03F100000578-3756764-The_group_which_was_made_up_of_women_and_children_were_seen_padd-a-1_1472060715069.jpg

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Quote:

The political row in France over mayors banning the burkini has intensified after a woman in a headscarf was photographed on a beach in Nice removing a long-sleeved top while surrounded by armed police.

The series of pictures, taken by a local French news photographer, showed a woman dressed in leggings, a long-sleeved tunic and headscarf being approached by four officers. As the police stand around her, she removes her long-sleeved top, revealing a short-sleeved top underneath. It is unclear whether or not the woman was ordered to do so. In another image, a police officer appears to write out a fine.

A spokesman for Vantage News, which released the pictures in the UK, said they were taken at about 11am (10am BST) on Tuesday. “The woman was fined, she left the beach and so did the police,” the spokesman said.

On Thursday, the council of state, France’s highest administrative court, will examine a request by the French Human Rights League to scrap the burkini bans. Lawyers argue that the short-term decrees are illegal.

The Nice mayor’s office denied that she had been forced to remove clothing, telling Agence France-Presse that the woman was showing police the swimsuit she was wearing under her tunic over a pair of leggings.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/french-burkini-ban-row-escalates-clothing-incident-woman-police-nice-beach

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/burkini-703240.jpg

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@izzythepush,

Just awful what happened as she is dressed as so many French women, leggings, top and a longsleeved tunic.
Had she been wearing a hat or a scarf, the police would not have come.
How come the news photographer happened to be there just in that moment?
Anyway we should all cover our heads when sitting in the hot sun, hardly anybody does.

1 Reply

@saab,

I read that the photographer was quite far away, had a telephoto lens (or whatever you call those).

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@saab,

saab wrote:

Yes women do choose to cover up - but still the rules were made by men from the very beginning.

I am skeptical that this is true. This is an interpretation of history that is based on our 21st century look back on early cultures. Would women in "the very beginning" agree that the rules were made by men?

I doubt it.

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@ossobucotemp,

ossobucotemp wrote:

You figure the rules in christianity were made by women? There was the odd saint or two or even three that had some pull on some matters.

Rules are made by cultures, not by individuals or genders.

The problems with this type of historical revisionism is that you are judging other cultures using modern American standards. Some of these cultures are the very cultures that we wiped out in order to create the country that now believes that woman shouldn't be subject to these rules.

If you ask women in these cultures if they would choose the modern American view of "rights", or the survival of their own culture... I suspect that they would choose their own culture. Unfortunately these cultures have been decimated and most of the women (and men) were killed to give you modern culture.

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@maxdancona,

I have read about the women during the Catholic times compared with after the Reformation.
Women before the Reformation were much more equal to men than afterwards.
They had much more to say in the home, in business often had to represent their husbands, when sailing or travelling all over Europe to trade. The men were then gone for months sometimes.
A cloister was not only a cloister, but also a farm and a hotel in that sence that
it had pilgrims and other travelers coming and going.
Clisters were also hospitals, a refugee for old people and for orphans.
The Swedish Saint Birgitta designed the habit for her nuns.

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@saab,

Just read in the paper that this about forbidding burkinis will be discuss in the French Government today.
Probably it will be forbidden to forbid burkinis.

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@saab,

Now that made me wonder about something which had never occurred to me before. Was Birgitta considered a saint after the reformation?

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@Setanta,

No she became a saint 1391.
After 625 years Sweden got a new saint.
Saint Maria Elizabeth Hesselblad (4 June 1870 – 24 April 1957), was a Swedish nurse who was a convert to the Roman Catholic Church and founded a new form of life of the Bridgettines known as the Bridgettine Sisters. She was a professed member of the Bridgettine order.

Pope John Paul II beatified her on 9 April 2000 and Pope Francis approved her canonization in late 2015; the canonization date was determined on 15 March 2016 and was celebrated on 5 June 2016 in Saint Peter's Square.[1] Hesselblad is also recognized as a Righteous Among the Nations due to her efforts in World War II saving the lives of Jewish people during the genocide of the Holocaust.

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@Setanta,

Maybe I misunderstood you question - yes Birgitta is still considered a saint today.
We learned about her in school and even read her text in original language.
As far as I know she is a respected person to-day, but not always. How much over the centuries I do not know.

Martin Luther called her die tolle Brigit ("the crazy Bridget"), Olaus Petri called her revelations "day dreams", and Queen Christina of Sweden said she preferred to be counted among the sensible rather than among the saints, compared because she too moved to Rome.

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A breath of fresh air from an Imam

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