0
   

2) Does "one" refer to "a bizarre double standard"?

 
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2016 12:33 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

This is the suspect part, Oris:

Quote:
If I am, in effect, advertising the direction of my eyes, I must be in a social environment full of others full of others who are not often inclined to take advantage of this to my detriment...


He's basically saying that the reason we don't always wear sunglasses (to conceal the direction we are looking from others) is because we trust others to "cooperate" with us rather than exploit us.

"Advertisin the direction of my eyes?" I aint buyin it, sorry.

In a poker game, some guys wear sunglasses, to make sure nobody "reads" them when they look at their cards. Good poker players will NOT hide their "emotions." They will use their facial expressions to deceive the other players instead. Run a game on them, ya know?


"In a poker game..." - that is exactly why the author used "not often" ("not often inclined to take advantage of this to my detriment"). Your poker game is a special case in which every one is inclined to take advantage off others' weakness in order to win the game.
But life is far more than this. A poker game or any similar game is a very small proportion of life. We cooperate to build our house, we cooperate economically so that we can survive, we cooperate intellectually so that we know more about life and become wiser... We cooperate often to benefit each other while we play not often poker games in some leisure time to make fun... In the former, we trust others so that they will trust us; in the latter, we make fun of others and they would return us with tease and joy...
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2016 12:39 am
@oristarA,
Quote:
We cooperate to build our house, we cooperate economically so that we can survive, we cooperate intellectually so that we know more about life and become wiser... We cooperate often to benefit each other while we play not often poker games in some leisure time to make fun... In former, we trust others so that they will trust us; in latter, we make fun of others and they would return us with tease and joy...


Sure, of course I agree with that.

But the argument about "evolution" is still quite silly. We all have eyes. People can see them, and our facial expressions in general, if we don't wear KKK hoods over our faces, topped-off with dark glasses. So what?

We weren't born wearing hoods. Is that how "evolution" and "cooperation" are supposed to enter the picture? Like, if other people couldn't generally be trusted, then we WOULD have evolved to be born with hoods over our faces?

These "evolution" arguments are specious, if you ask me.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2016 12:50 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
We cooperate to build our house, we cooperate economically so that we can survive, we cooperate intellectually so that we know more about life and become wiser... We cooperate often to benefit each other while we play not often poker games in some leisure time to make fun... In former, we trust others so that they will trust us; in latter, we make fun of others and they would return us with tease and joy...


Sure, of course I agree with that.

But the argument about "evolution" is still quite silly. We all have eyes. People can see them, and our facial expressions in general, if we don't wear KKK hoods over our faces, topped-off with dark glasses. So what?

We weren't born wearing hoods. Is that how "evolution" and "cooperation" are supposed to enter the picture? Like, if other people couldn't generally be trusted, then we WOULD have evolved to be born with hoods over our faces?

These "evolution" arguments are specious, if you ask me.


Read professor Steven Pinker's book:The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature#Six_trends_of_declining_violence_.28Chapters_2_through_7.29

Evolution theory works. Pinker is one of the members of Project Reason co-founded by Sam Harris.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2016 01:07 am
@oristarA,

Quote:
Evolution theory works. Pinker is one of the members of Project Reason co-founded by Sam Harris.


I didn't say that "evolution" doesn't "work," so I'm not sure what you're getting at. I like a "just-so story" as well as the next guy, but I don't take them to be literal truth. If you do, OK, help yourself.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2016 01:20 am
@oristarA,
I looked at your link. You don't have to read very far to see that Pinker is NOT talking about evolution as a cause or explanation:

Quote:
Pinker argues that the radical declines in violent behavior that he documents do not result from major changes in human biology or cognition....Pinker also rejects what he regards as the simplistic nature versus nurture argument, which would imply that the radical change must therefore have come purely from external ("nurture") sources.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2016 05:53 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

I looked at your link. You don't have to read very far to see that Pinker is NOT talking about evolution as a cause or explanation:

Quote:
Pinker argues that the radical declines in violent behavior that he documents do not result from major changes in human biology or cognition....Pinker also rejects what he regards as the simplistic nature versus nurture argument, which would imply that the radical change must therefore have come purely from external ("nurture") sources.



Good point.
What you are unaware is that Pinker's explanation is essentially following evolutionary principles:
Quote:
Instead, he (Pinker) argues: "The way to explain the decline of violence is to identify the changes in our cultural and material milieu that have given our peaceable motives the upper hand."[3]

That is exactly why British evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins in The Selfish Gene coined the word meme, "a concept for discussion of evolutionary principles in explaining the spread of ideas and cultural phenomena."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2016 08:12 am
@oristarA,
Quote:
That is exactly why British evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins in The Selfish Gene coined the word meme, "a concept for discussion of evolutionary principles in explaining the spread of ideas and cultural phenomena."


Well, ya know what Karl Popper said about that, eh, Oris? Natural Selection, like communism and Freudian psychiatry, can be used to explain EVERYTHING.

Which is an indirect way of sayin it don't explain nuthin.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 01:53 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
That is exactly why British evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins in The Selfish Gene coined the word meme, "a concept for discussion of evolutionary principles in explaining the spread of ideas and cultural phenomena."


Well, ya know what Karl Popper said about that, eh, Oris? Natural Selection, like communism and Freudian psychiatry, can be used to explain EVERYTHING.

Which is an indirect way of sayin it don't explain nuthin.


So you have no clue about what is epigenetic inheritance via DNA and protein methylation, which serves as epigenetic factors "that switch genes on and off and affect how cells read genes instead of being caused by changes in the DNA sequence."

Pinker's "major changes in human biology" refers to "changes in the DNA sequence." It appears that he's not very familiar with epigenetics.

Freud only erected an impressively unscientific mythology.

Popper's Three World conjecture is more philosophic than empirically scientific (but given the condition of his era, his view is still impressive).

The hick complaint of yours reveals that your knowledge is outdated.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 02:17 am
@oristarA,
Quote:
So you have no clue about what is epigenetic inheritance via DNA and protein methylation...The hick complaint of yours reveals that your knowledge is outdated.


You seem to get immensely presumptive, arrogant, and condescending when it comes to pronouncing what "scientific truth" is, Oris.

Epigentic and/or regulatory factors in inheritance have NOTHING to do with natural selection, per se. They address the origin of genetic variation.

Natural selection, by definition, does NOT creates variation. It merely acts upon what has previously been created by other methods.

Natural selection can only be a major driver of evolution IF variation is primarily undirected, random, and unregulated. If variation (mutation) is directed then THAT (not natural selection) is what controls the direction of evolution.

Put simply, you are confusing and conflating natural selection with genetic variation, but they are two entirely different things.

Do you always think your own misunderstandings prove ignorance on the part of anyone who don't share them with you?
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 05:11 am
@layman,
Here's the claim, again:

Quote:
Certain biological traits appear to have been shaped by, and to have further enhanced, the human capacity for cooperation. For instance, unlike the rest of the earth'screatures, including our fellow primates, the sclera of our eyes (the region surrounding the colored iris) is white and exposed. This makes the direction of the human gaze very easy to detect, allowing us to notice even the subtlest shifts in one another's visual attention.


The claim is that "the human capacity for cooperation" SHAPES biological traits.

How does that work, exactly?

These very same "biological traits" that are "shaped by" human cooperation, also ENHANCE the "capacity for human cooperation." Could ya get a little more circular you think?

So, what's an example of this "shaping" and "enhancement?" Here's one:

Quote:
..the sclera of our eyes (the region surrounding the colored iris) is white and exposed. This makes the direction of the human gaze very easy to detect, allowing us to notice even the subtlest shifts in one another's visual attention.


This is the most confused linking of "human capacities" with the creation of "biological traits" that I've run across in a while. Some people think that "evolution" answers all questions, however ridiculous the "answer" might be. This guy seems to be one of those people.

This has nothing to do with either "natural selection" or "random variation." The variation is not random--it is caused by the capacity for cooperation. The desirable biological traits are not selected by "nature," they are selected by the human organism that wants to shape and enhance his capacity for cooperation.

What makes the whole argument triply feeble is that there is no real connection between human between whites of the eyes and human cooperation. The attempt to make one is prima facie absurd.

What's the reasoning here? That because cooperation is a "good thing," our eyes have whites in them? Really? Someone should have told Rudyard Kipling, eh? That would have made a good story...NOT.

oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 01:41 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
So you have no clue about what is epigenetic inheritance via DNA and protein methylation...The hick complaint of yours reveals that your knowledge is outdated.


You seem to get immensely presumptive, arrogant, and condescending when it comes to pronouncing what "scientific truth" is, Oris.

Epigentic and/or regulatory factors in inheritance have NOTHING to do with natural selection, per se. They address the origin of genetic variation.

Natural selection, by definition, does NOT creates variation. It merely acts upon what has previously been created by other methods.

Natural selection can only be a major driver of evolution IF variation is primarily undirected, random, and unregulated. If variation (mutation) is directed then THAT (not natural selection) is what controls the direction of evolution.

Put simply, you are confusing and conflating natural selection with genetic variation, but they are two entirely different things.

Do you always think your own misunderstandings prove ignorance on the part of anyone who don't share them with you?


I mentioned "evolutionary principles" of evolution, and you are talking about "natural selection." Wink
Even if I was talking about natural selection, I follow the definition of the common version (1), while you have been following a definition of Layman Version, which, of course I know, will be hidden behind the event horizon of your mind and will be permanently inaccessible to other readers.

Quote:
(1) Natural selection is the differential survival and reproduction of individuals due to differences in phenotype.[1] It is a key mechanism of evolution, the change in heritable traits of a population over time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection


We know differences in phenotype refer to phenotypic variations, which are the results of genetic variations. That is, genetic variations offer one of the bases of natural selection. (Sure in Layman's version, "natural selection and genetic variation " are two entirely different things.")
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 01:50 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Here's the claim, again:

Quote:
Certain biological traits appear to have been shaped by, and to have further enhanced, the human capacity for cooperation. For instance, unlike the rest of the earth'screatures, including our fellow primates, the sclera of our eyes (the region surrounding the colored iris) is white and exposed. This makes the direction of the human gaze very easy to detect, allowing us to notice even the subtlest shifts in one another's visual attention.


The claim is that "the human capacity for cooperation" SHAPES biological traits.

How does that work, exactly?

These very same "biological traits" that are "shaped by" human cooperation, also ENHANCE the "capacity for human cooperation." Could ya get a little more circular you think?

So, what's an example of this "shaping" and "enhancement?" Here's one:

Quote:
..the sclera of our eyes (the region surrounding the colored iris) is white and exposed. This makes the direction of the human gaze very easy to detect, allowing us to notice even the subtlest shifts in one another's visual attention.


This is the most confused linking of "human capacities" with the creation of "biological traits" that I've run across in a while. Some people think that "evolution" answers all questions, however ridiculous the "answer" might be. This guy seems to be one of those people.

This has nothing to do with either "natural selection" or "random variation." The variation is not random--it is caused by the capacity for cooperation. The desirable biological traits are not selected by "nature," they are selected by the human organism that wants to shape and enhance his capacity for cooperation.

What makes the whole argument triply feeble is that there is no real connection between human between whites of the eyes and human cooperation. The attempt to make one is prima facie absurd.

What's the reasoning here? That because cooperation is a "good thing," our eyes have whites in them? Really? Someone should have told Rudyard Kipling, eh? That would have made a good story...NOT.




That is NOT CIRCULAR.
The guy has very well used up-to-date research findings, the knowledge of which you terribly lack. That is why you feel that he is circular. Very Happy













layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 02:11 am
@oristarA,
Quote:
(Sure in Layman's version, "natural selection and genetic variation " are two entirely different things.")


Sho nuff. Not only my version, but the "version" of Darwinian theory that anybody who knows anything knows, eh? You're confusing the guy at the restaurant with the menu.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 02:19 am
@oristarA,
Quote:
The guy has very well used up-to-date research findings, the knowledge of which you terribly lack. That is why you feel that he is circular.


You're simply displaying how little you know, Oris, all while thinking you understand. Get over yourself, fool.

If you think "up-to-date research" tells you that natural selection and random variation and natural selection don't apply, but if, say, the organism decides it would be nice to his offspring to have 10 fingers, then he just changes his genes and they get them from him, then I don't know what you're reading, but it aint that.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 03:04 am
@oristarA,
If it suits your religious needs, Oris, you're quite free to posit "evolution" as your omnibenevolent God with omniscience and omnipotence. Such a "force" can in fact do ANYTHING and "explain" ALL things.

But don't kid yourself and start believing that your views are consistent with "up-to-date research," eh?
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 03:10 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
(Sure in Layman's version, "natural selection and genetic variation " are two entirely different things.")


Sho nuff. Not only my version, but the "version" of Darwinian theory that anybody who knows anything knows, eh? You're confusing the guy at the restaurant with the menu.


Huh. Surely your version ONLY.
And yes the "version" of Darwinian theory will support you, but the Version of Darwinian theory never. Because the former has been cooked up by you. Cool So please don't pretend that anybody knows it. As I've pointed out, your version and the "version" of Darwinian theory is permanently inaccessible to other readers.
If you are not convinced, show us the link to the "version" of Darwinian theory.
Needless to say that I've showed you the link to the Version of Darwinian theory about natural selection.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 03:12 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

If it suits your religious needs, Oris, you're quite free to posit "evolution" as your omnibenevolent God with omniscience and omnipotence. Such a "force" can in fact do ANYTHING and "explain" ALL things.

But don't kid yourself and start believing that your views are consistent with "up-to-date research," eh?


I've always said THERE IS NO GOD.
Again, you tried to cook up something non-existent. It betrays that you're weak-minded.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 03:20 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
The guy has very well used up-to-date research findings, the knowledge of which you terribly lack. That is why you feel that he is circular.


You're simply displaying how little you know, Oris, all while thinking you understand. Get over yourself, fool.



It depends on how you define the word fool.
A is able to offer a clear definition about a scientific issue; B fails to do so.
As common sense, the former is smart, while the latter is probably a fool.

layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 03:55 am
@oristarA,
Quote:
A is able to offer a clear definition about a scientific issue; B fails to do so.


Exactly.

Fool.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jan, 2016 04:02 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
A is able to offer a clear definition about a scientific issue; B fails to do so.


Exactly.

Fool.


Yes. You failed to offer the definition and you've now accepted the judgement standard and thus admitted that you are a fool.
Honesty is the best policy.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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