6
   

Venerable vs. terrible

 
 
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 08:09 am
Truly in my heart it is a terrible, dark tradition, while the author said it is venerable. I wonder whether he said this in a sarcastic way.
What is your opinion?
Context:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2jd28gy.jpg

-Sam Harris
 
View best answer, chosen by oristarA
maxdancona
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 08:49 am
@oristarA,
The word "venerable" is subjective. I suspect that the people in this culture don't share your opinion that this tradition is horrible or dark any more than we see our forms of justice as "horrible or dark".

You are looking at things through your own cultural bias that has everything to do with where and when you are born and how you were brought up. Some cultures will see this as horrible and dark. Other cultures will see it as an example of justice and fairness.

Obviously the writer brings up this particular example to be shocking to the people who will read his book. The word venerable is chosen to highlight this effect... this is an example where different cultures view an act in very different ways.

I don't consider this an example of "sarcasm". He is using a word to make his point in a strong manner... and the word made you react emotionally in the way the author intended.


I thought Sam Harris argues for a form of science-based moral absolutism, doesn't he?

Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 09:33 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I thought Sam Harris argues for a form of science-based moral absolutism, doesn't he?

Personally, I think Harris is a whacko. Oristar, beware of this nutcase.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 10:50 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The word "venerable" is subjective. I suspect that the people in this culture don't share your opinion that this tradition is horrible or dark any more than we see our forms of justice as "horrible or dark".

You are looking at things through your own cultural bias that has everything to do with where and when you are born and how you were brought up. Some cultures will see this as horrible and dark. Other cultures will see it as an example of justice and fairness.

Obviously the writer brings up this particular example to be shocking to the people who will read his book. The word venerable is chosen to highlight this effect... this is an example where different cultures view an act in very different ways.

I don't consider this an example of "sarcasm". He is using a word to make his point in a strong manner... and the word made you react emotionally in the way the author intended.


I thought Sam Harris argues for a form of science-based moral absolutism, doesn't he?




Excellent.

The author went on:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2n0su8x.jpg

(1) Does "do" mean "are bound to transcend culture"?
(2) Does "culture defines us" mean "culture determines the essential quality of us"?
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 05:42 pm
@oristarA,
1) Yes
2) Yes

Also, regarding the OP, "irony" might be a better choice of words than "sarcasm" to describe Harris' use of the word "venerable."
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2015 09:38 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

1) Yes
2) Yes

Also, regarding the OP, "irony" might be a better choice of words than "sarcasm" to describe Harris' use of the word "venerable."


Excellent.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 12:14 pm

The author went on:

Quote:

Charges of "scientism" cannot be long in coming. No doubt, there are still som people who will reject any description of human nature that was not first communicated in iambic pentameter. Many readers may also fear that the case I am making is vaguely, or even explicitly, utopian. It isn!ˉt,as should become clear in due course.


(1) Does "cannot be long in coming" mean "may arrive soon"?
(2) Does "reject any description of human nature that was not first communicated in iambic pentameter" mean "only admit the description of human nature that was first communicated in iambic pentameter as true description, otherwise (that is, not in iambic pentameter), (they) reject"?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 12:28 pm
@oristarA,
"Can not be long in coming" means " they will happen soon.

Iambic pentameter is a form of poetry that is common in mythological texts. Things communicated in iambic pentameter are a reference to ancient religious texts.
0 Replies
 
Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 12:49 pm
Quote:
Iambic pentameter is a form of poetry

...an iamb is an usntressed syllable followed by a stressed one; an iambic pentameter is a line of verse consisting of five of these. (Penta - prefix from Greek word for five)

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?

0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 09:07 pm
Thank you both.
But the second question remains:
Quote:
(2) Does "(some people who will) reject any description of human nature that was not first communicated in iambic pentameter" mean "only admit the description of human nature that was first communicated in iambic pentameter as true description, otherwise (that is, not in iambic pentameter), (they) reject"?


The problem in the understanding is why some people want to reject.
For the people, any description (about human nature) will be rejected as long as the description was first communicated in iambic pentameter.
That is, such people only admit the description that was first communicated in iambic pentameter?
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 09:16 pm
@oristarA,
I interpret this as

They will reject any description of human nature that isn't part of a classical religious or mythological understanding.

I don't think "iambic pentameter" is important, it is just an allusion to the fact that classical literature was written in iambic pentameter. I think his use of the phrase "iambic pentameter" is supposed to be clever, it is not actually a very well-written sentence. You are reading too much into it.


0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2015 10:52 pm
@oristarA,
Harris is being Anglocentric with his reference to iambic pentameter. The English language lends itself particularly well to that poetic form, but it's not the form that the classical myths were written in. The Greek and Latin epic poems, for example, were written in dactylic hexameter.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 11:48 am
@oristarA,
The author went on:

Quote:
Of course, we will have to confront some ancient disagreements about the status of moral truth: people who draw their worldview from religion generally believe that moral truth exists, but only because God has woven it into the very fabric of reality; while those who lack such faith tend to think that notions of "good" and "evil" must be the products of evolutionary pressure and cultural invention. On the first account, to speak of "moral truth" is, of necessity, to invoke God; on the second, it is merely to give


Does "On the first account" mean "on the first step of what we want to account for"?
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 01:55 pm
@oristarA,

The author went on:

Quote:
Of course, we will have to confront some ancient disagreements about the status of moral truth: people who draw their worldview from religion generally believe that moral truth exists, but only because God has woven it into the very fabric of reality; while those who lack such faith tend to think that notions of "good" and "evil" must be the products of evolutionary pressure and cultural invention. On the first account, to speak of "moral truth" is, of necessity, to invoke God; on the second, it is merely to give voice to one's apish urges, cultural biases,and philosophical confusion. My purpose is to persuade you that both sides in this debate are wrong. The goal of this book is to begin a conversation about how moral truth can be understood in the context of science.
While the argument I make in this book is bound to be controversial, it rests on a very simple premise: human well-being entirely depends on events in the world and on states of the human brain. Consequently, there must be scientific truths to be known about it. A more detailed understanding of these truths will force us to draw clear distinctions between different ways of living in society with one another, judging some to be better or worse, more or less true to the facts, and more or less ethical. Clearly, such insights could help us to improve the quality of human life!aand this is where academic debate ends and choices affecting the lives of millions of people begin.


What does "both sides" refer to? It seems not to be the two accounts.

Tes yeux noirs
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2015 02:18 pm
@oristarA,
2 sides in the debate:

1 "...people who draw their worldview from religion [and] generally believe that moral truth exists, but only because God has woven it into the very fabric of reality"

2 "...those who lack such faith [and] tend to think that notions of "good" and "evil" must be the products of evolutionary pressure and cultural invention"
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 12:10 am
@Tes yeux noirs,
Thanks.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 04:52 am
@oristarA,

I think he just means old, or historical. I don't think any irony or sarcasm is intended here.

A good dictionary is always a great help. But sometimes people misuse words.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 07:34 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


I think he just means old, or historical. I don't think any irony or sarcasm is intended here.

A good dictionary is always a great help. But sometimes people misuse words.


That is, he's neutral? And sure he thinks the tradition is outdated in this scientific era?
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 07:36 am
The author went on:
Quote:
While the argument I make in this book is bound to be controversial, it rests on a very simple premise: human well-being entirely depends on events in the world and on states of the human brain. Consequently, there must be scientific truths to be known about it. A more detailed understanding of these truths will force us to draw clear distinctions between different ways of living in society with one another, judging some to be better or worse, more or less true to the facts, and more or less ethical. Clearly, such insights could help us to improve the quality of human life!aand this is where academic
debate ends and choices affecting the lives of millions of people begin.


I wonder whether the meaning will remain the same if I put in "the" there:

human well-being entirely depends on the events in the world and on the states of the human brain.

If not, why?
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2015 04:45 pm
@oristarA,

It's the same meaning.

Although "the states of the human brain" sounds a bit particular, as if there were fourteen states of the brain that everyone was familiar with.
"States of the human brain" sounds more general.

I think in general, the level of the grammar, and of the logic, of this piece are of fairly low quality.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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