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Why does time not exist?

 
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 08:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
As far as I know, yes. Hence Einstein's theory of relativity.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 09:02 pm
@Ragman,
Quote:
This test has been duplicated many times and is known phenomenon ...indicating the time is relative and varies depending on the effect of gravity..Arrgh..I can't explain it right.


You're right, this has been tested many times, and clocks do run slower the deeper into the "gravity well" you are.

This proves that the rate of periodic regularly recurring events does SLOW DOWN. But it does not prove that time is "relative," which is a different concept than that the rate of clocks vary.

In fact, in general relativity this is an absolute effect, not a relative one. It is NOT a frame-dependent phenomenon.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 09:03 pm
@Tuna,
Tuna wrote:

I met a guy who had a precise sense of time. He said it came from watching episodes of I Love Lucy as a child. Each episode was exactly 30 minutes long. He learned to stack 30 minute intervals. He said that up to about three hours after seeing a clock, he could tell you the time (assuming that clock was right.)

My time-sense is very elastic. I thought everybody was like that. In fact, I wouldn't have believed the dude had that ability if I hadn't seen it demonstrated. Precise time-sense is as astonishing to me as perfect pitch.

The moral to the story is: people don't experience the world in exactly the same way. Your way may be unique.



I used to work with a guy who was amazed how well I could judge time during the day. He would ask me the time several times a day. I always had it correct. Now that I am retired, I doubt I could still do it.
layman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 09:09 pm
@layman,
What a lot of people don't understand is that it has never been proven that "time is relative." Some ASSUME that it is, and proceed from there.

Some ASSUME that it isn't, and proceed from there.

As far as relative motion goes, both assumptions give the same predictions.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 09:12 pm
@edgarblythe,
I lead a simple life:
When I open the shade, and I see light then I know that it's day time. If when I look another time and it's dark, then it's night time.

If I look over at the phone when it rings and I see a certain telephone number..I know it's a relative. I don't answer it...hence, the non-relative state of my existence.
layman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 09:13 pm
@Ragman,
Quote:
I don't answer it...hence, the non-relative state of my existence.


Good work, Rags!
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 09:47 pm
@layman,
I have a bit of understanding how time is relative. It's when they get into the nuts and bolts of it all I get lost.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 09:49 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I have a bit of understanding how time is relative.


Well, if ya ask me, Ed, it aint relative.

And no one can prove I'm wrong, either. Not Einstein, not nobody.

PS: And many prominent physicists agree with me. Well, it's more like I agree with them, but, still....
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 10:17 pm
As with all science, we take what we know and go with it, until we learn more.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 05:11 am
@edgarblythe,
I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that. I would say we go with what we need. Scientific knowledge serves human needs, and one of those needs could be exploration for no practical purpose at the time. For example, I seem to remember that the mathematics which explains electrical power transmission was explored/discovered about two hundred years prior to a concept of electric current. This interplay between mathematical models and practical applications seems to be at the root of your issue of 'understanding time'. The fact that much of Relativity and quantum mechanics tends to be counter-intuitive does not sit well with their practical uses in modern technology.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 05:35 am
@fresco,
Just a matter of context, isn't it?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 05:47 am
And all this science
I don't understand . . .


0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 08:53 am
@edgarblythe,
Context - of course , but the abstract models are tending to generate new observations/contexts rather than merely 'explain' them. Who would have thought that identical clocks would have gone out of sync due to differing reference frames had it not been for Relativity ?And that issue is now central to correction factors in GPS systems.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 16 May, 2024 12:06 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Time Does Not Exist, at the fundamental level


At the fundamental level or most basic or most important thing on which other things depend, is the singularity of origin. A singularity is a region of space-time in which matter is crushed so closely together that the gravitational laws explained by general relativity break down. In a singularity, the volume of space is zero and its density is infinite. Scientists believe such a singularity exists at the core of a black hole, which occurs when a super-massive sun reaches the end of its life and implodes.

General relativity also demands such a singularity must exist at the beginning of an expanding universe.

Where there is no space, there can be no movement and where there is no movement over space there can be no time, it was only after the singularity of our origin was spatially separated that there was momentum and therefore time.
steve reid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2024 02:34 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:
Where there is no space, there can be no movement and where there is no movement over space there can be no time, it was only after the singularity of our origin was spatially separated that there was momentum and therefore time.
Very Happy

For years I wondered what is the counterpart outside of my mind that my perception of time is created from. I can reason Lightwaves/Photons are the counterpart from which my visual perception is created, and Pressure Waves are the counterpart from which my perception of sound is created, but what/where was the counterpart from which my perception of time is created

There didn't seem to be anything, and yet the answer was right in front of me all along. The counterpart is motion, it is from motion we perceive time. It was while reading Aristotle's ideas on time that gave me an answer, time is not something in of itself, time is an attribute of motion

As my perceptions of light, colour and sound are a distortion of their counterparts it would hardly be surprising if my perception of time was also a distortion of its counterpart, in fact it would have to be as the brain can't duplicate in the mind that which exists outside the mind

As I watch someone pass from left to right, I am subconsciously storing snapshots/memories of them in the present and predicting their future steps, and yet each step they take is taken in the present. In my mind there is the idea the previous step was in the past and the next step will be in the future, but these ideas are the distortion, the past is just memories in the mind, the future are abstract ideas in the mind, time is always the present both inside and outside the mind. Our speaking of the past and future is to get ideas across even though past and future never did and never will exist as past and future, it is always the present

So I wonder

1. Is time a dimension
2. Is there an arrow of time

At present I'm inclined to think no to both
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 May, 2024 09:40 pm
@steve reid,
Hello again Steve.

You are to travel across a distance between point A and point B, at a constant speed which will take a given time, if you wish to halve the time taken, you must double the speed each time.

I also am traveling across a distance between point A and point B, at a constant speed which will take a given time, I wish to halve the time taken, but maintain the original speed, to do this, I must halve the distance each time.

Where does your doubling of speed and my halving of distance end?
steve reid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2024 11:54 am
@The Anointed,
Hello The Anointed
The Anointed wrote:

Hello again Steve.

You are to travel across a distance between point A and point B, at a constant speed which will take a given time, if you wish to halve the time taken, you must double the speed each time.

I also am traveling across a distance between point A and point B, at a constant speed which will take a given time, I wish to halve the time taken, but maintain the original speed, to do this, I must halve the distance each time.

Where does your doubling of speed and my halving of distance end?

Well I'd have to say

My doubling of speed ends if the doubling would exceed the speed of light

Your halving of distance ends if the halving would be less than the Planck lenght
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 May, 2024 05:06 pm
@steve reid,
Quote:
Well I'd have to say

My doubling of speed ends if the doubling would exceed the speed of light

Your halving of distance ends if the halving would be less than the Planck lenght


The Planck length might be the smallest measurement with any meaning to us in this Macro world, but when you consider a proton, which is a subatomic particle that forms part of the nucleus of an atom and a proton is around 10 to 20 times smaller than a Planck length and add to that, the fact that protons are not fundamental particles and are composed of smaller constituents called quarks and gluons, then the Planck length in this micro world no longer seems so small.

This universe began as a singularity and will end as a singularity, the gravitational condensation of the photons which are the quantum of the electromagnetic energy from which all matter was created, does not stop at the Plank length.

At the singularity there is no space between the photons, [NO SPACE] there is no Big Bounce.

Because three-dimensional time as we know it, does not exist prior to the Big Bang: from the return of the universe to the supposedly infinitely hot, infinitely dense and infinitesimally small singularity of origin to the next Big Bang when three dimensional space and time would begin, it would appear that no time had elapsed, thus [As I believe] the erroneous Big Bounce theory.

Another universe may have preceded ours study finds. May 14th, 2006. Courtesy Penn State University and World Science staff.
Three physicists say they have done calculations suggesting that before the birth of our universe, which is expanding, there was an earlier universe that was shrinking. To arrive at their pre-existing universe finding, Ashtekar’s group used loop quantum gravity, a theory that seeks to reconcile General relativity with quantum physics.

These two seemingly fundamental theories are otherwise contradictory in some ways. Loop quantum gravity, which was pioneered at Ashtekar’s institute, proposes that spacetime has a discrete “atomic” structure, as opposed to being a continuous sheet, as Einstein, along with most us, assumed. In loop quantum gravity, space is thought of as woven from one-dimensional “threads.” The continuum picture remains mostly valid as an approximation. But near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn so that it’s discrete, or quantum, nature becomes important. One outcome of this is that gravity becomes repulsive instead of attractive, Ashetkar argued; the result is the Big Bounce.

Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University, a cosmologist who has explored some related concepts, wrote in an email that the new research “Supports, in a general way, the idea that the Big Bang need not be the beginning of space and time.” The universe “may have undergone one or more bangs in its past history,” he added. Steinhardt and colleagues have also proposed a bounce of sorts, but it’s different. It could turn out that the two scenarios are equivalent at some deep level, but that’s not known, he added. Steinhardt‘s scenario makes use of string theory, another attempt to reconcile General Relativity with quantum physics. Some versions of string theory portray our visible universe as a three -dimensional space embedded in an invisible space having more dimensions.

There is no Big Bounce, like night and day there is a rest period between the Big Crunch and the next Big Bang.

“Universe after universe is like an interminable succession of wheels forever coming into view, forever rolling onwards, disappearing and reappearing; forever passing from being to non-being, and again from non-being to being. In short, the constant revolving of the wheel of life in one eternal cycle, according to fixed and immutable laws, is perhaps after all, the sum and substance of the philosophy of Buddhism. And this eternal wheel has so to speak, six spokes representing six forms of existence.” ---- Mon. Williams, Buddhism, pp. 229, 122.
steve reid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2024 10:13 am
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:
......but when you consider a proton, which is a subatomic particle that forms part of the nucleus of an atom and a proton is around 10 to 20 times smaller than a Planck length......


And part of a statement you posted previously

The Anointed wrote:
In fact, it has now been revealed that matter is no more than an illusion.

Quantum physicists discovered that so called physical atoms are made up of vortices of energy that are constantly spinning and vibrating, each one radiating its own unique energy signature.

If you observe the composition of an atom with a microscope you would see a small, invisible tornado-like vortex, with a number of infinitely small energy vortices called quarks and photons. These are what make up the structure of the atom. As you focused in closer and closer on the structure of the atom, you would see nothing, you would observe a physical void.

The atom has no physical structure, we have no physical structure, physical things really don’t have any physical structure! Atoms are made out of invisible energy, not tangible matter.


Given that you believe Matter/Atoms/Sub Atomic particles are not tangible, are an illusion that have no structure and are made out of invisible energy. What attribute of an Atom are scientists measuring to determine the size of said Atom, seeing it is a non tangible, illusory, non structured, invisible, energetic vortex. What do you believe they are measuring that gives the Proton a size smaller than the Planck length
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2024 04:24 pm
@The Anointed,
Quote:
The Planck length might be the smallest measurement with any meaning to us in this Macro world, but when you consider a proton, which is a subatomic particle that forms part of the nucleus of an atom and a proton is around 10 to 20 times smaller than a Planck length and add to that, the fact that protons are not fundamental particles and are composed of smaller constituents called quarks and gluons, then the Planck length in this micro world no longer seems so small.


If you could visualize an atom as being the size of the earth, a Planck length would be smaller than a proton, the Planck length is a billion billion times smaller than a proton.
 

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