6
   

Is Richard Dawkins a scientist?

 
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 06:46 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
There are many ways to interpret data about evolution. But are you saying morality is a result of evolution, just not due to adaptation? If so, which of the 4 drivers that Myers talks about would you guess is responsible?

I don't know. Maybe all of them. Consciousness obviously plays a part in human morality, so a working theory of consciousness would be helpful.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 08:42 am
@Tuna,
something of a moderate historical event is approaching, the decision of Kitzmiller v. Dover will be 10 years old in December 20 2015

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2015/10/10th-anniversar.html#more


Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 10:25 am
@farmerman,
Smile I don't know much about intelligent design theories. I agree that there shouldn't be a pulpit of any kind in a science class.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 10:42 am
@Tuna,
I agree, no pulpits in the classroom. My only reservation about how evolution is taught is when it is presented as 'Evolution Explains Everything'.

Because, you know, it doesn't.
Tuna
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 11:02 am
@Leadfoot,
My understanding is that evolution hasn't explained everything yet. So presenting evolution that way would be a different kind of pulpit which also doesn't belong in a science class.

I think positive atheists are free to make their own private schools and present metaphysical answers to kids. I think ultimately it would be a waste of money, though. Some kids will accept whatever you tell them because they really don't care. The ones that do care will decide for themselves what they believe in spite of (and in some cases because of) intellectual bullying.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 11:03 am
@Tuna,
Quote:
Farmerman's points are correct. He was an influential scientist...He defends evolutionary psychology by suggesting that it offends people as opposed to presenting scientific research to support it.


Given what I know about Dawkins (which really aint all that much), if I had to choose one word to describe him it certainly would not be "scientist." It would probably choose "advocate," of the polemic strain.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 11:21 am
@Tuna,
Quote:
My understanding is that evolution hasn't explained everything yet. So presenting evolution that way would be a different kind of pulpit which also doesn't belong in a science class.


According to the philosopher Michael Ruse, the more ardent "secular humanists" are attempting to do exactly what they say they oppose, i.e., teaching religion in the classroom. But since it's their religion, it's OK

Quote:
Call it a secular religion if you will, or call it something else entirely. The Humanism I have been discussing in this piece does bear strong similarities to conventional religion. One finds the enthusiasm of the true believer, and this encourages a set of unnerving attributes: intolerance, hero-worship, moral certainty and the self-righteous condemnation of unbelievers. As an atheist Darwinian evolutionist, as one who is a humanist in the broader sense, this makes me feel really ill.


http://aeon.co/magazine/philosophy/michael-ruse-humanism-religion/
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 11:55 am
@layman,
Quote:
“It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).” ― Richard Dawkins


It's certainly not the goal of our schools to teach kids to be either stupid, ignorant, insane, or wicked, I figure. So, by God, we better make them BELIEVE in evolution (as we teach it to be).
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 12:01 pm
Dawkins is a scientist, whether or not we choose to consider him as one. I'm sure the holy rollers think of him as a limb of Satan, but that is neither here nor there when the question is "Is Richard Dawkins a scientist?"
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 01:05 pm
@Setanta,
Hed made some decent contributions before he became a barista for the devil.

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 01:08 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
something of a moderate historical event is approaching, the decision of Kitzmiller v. Dover will be 10 years old in December 20 2015

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2015/10/10th-anniversar.html#more

Who said this, ya figure?

Quote:
I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe, and especially the nature of man, and to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance. Not that this notion at all satisfies me. I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect.


"Too profound for the human intellect?" Some IDer, no doubt. Dawkins, for one, KNOWS better. Too bad Chuck didn't, eh?

Quote:
Yours sincerely and cordially, Charles Darwin" (Darwin to Asa Gray, [a minister] May 22, 1860)


If ya can't see it, then obviously it aint there, Chuck:

Quote:
“My theology is a simple muddle; I cannot look at the universe as the result of blind chance, yet I can see no evidence of beneficent design, or indeed of design of any kind, in the details.” Charles Darwin, letter to J.D. Hooker (1861)

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 01:12 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
My only reservation about how evolution is taught is when it is presented as 'Evolution Explains Everything'.
I really dont know where soma you guys get this ****.
In most cases, schools dont want to teach evolution in BIOLOGY aqt all.

The "belief" system that drives the theist's worldviews is simple, direct, and mostly fulla ****.

Im listening in to much of this quote mining that stands in for personal experience and training . If you were actually in the "relevant fields" youd see that most conclusions of science are lightly delivered with as many references to all the counter possibilities , so that when we read a journal article its sometimes difficult to determine whether there are any conclusions at all.


layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 01:20 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
...most conclusions of science are lightly delivered with as many references to all the counter possibilities , so that when we read a journal article its sometimes difficult to determine whether there are any conclusions at all.


Very astute, Farmer.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 01:53 pm
Quote:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” (Bertrand Russell)


Bertie mighta stole this from Clemens, I figure.

Quote:
"The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so." (Mark Twain)


Then again, Twain coulda stole it from Darwin:

Quote:
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert...this or that...(Charles Darwin)


But who knows for sure? I think Plato mighta said about the same thing. Whatever, I kinda like the way Bierce put it best:

Quote:
"To be positive: To be mistaken at the top of one's voice." (Ambrose Bierce)

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 02:00 pm
@layman,
Bierce got that from LUCY in Peanuts
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 02:03 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Bierce got that from LUCY in Peanuts


Heh, yeah, probably.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 02:36 pm
@layman,
Quote:
"The trouble with the world is not that people know too little, but that they know so many things that ain't so." (Mark Twain)

"Such is the human race that it often seems a pity Noah didn't miss the boat." -Mark Twain.

Its not relevant. It's just my favorite Twain quote.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 02:43 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
Its not relevant. It's just my favorite Twain quote.


Twain, he ROCKS, eh!?

Quote:
“Honesty is the best policy -- when there is money in it” (Twain)
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 03:34 pm
@layman,
Yep. Smile
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2015 04:44 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"My only reservation about how evolution is taught is when it is presented as 'Evolution Explains Everything'."

I really dont know where soma you guys get this ****.
In most cases, schools dont want to teach evolution in BIOLOGY aqt all.
I doubt either of us knows what they are teaching in public schools these days. I hear anecdotes all over the map about it. But in the popular culture there is a slant that I find disturbing. Especially because it is so 'innocent' and subtle in it's delivery.

The example that comes to mind was in the Neale Degrassi (narrated) "Cosmos" series. There wasn't an explicit statement that said anything of the kind but watching & listening, you couldn't come away with any other impression than that Science had the last & final answer to all the mysteries of life & universe.

Bill Nye (the "science" guy) IS explicit. He wants children "to be inoculated at a young age with the truth that life is explained by Evolution before they can be confused by creationist myth". That's as close to a direct quote as I can remember and like most atheists, he absolutely conflates religion and ID with the worst kind of 'creationists".

That (and various examples from A2K threads) is really where I come up with this "****".
 

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