North Korea says, "sanctions means war."

c.i.

au1929,

Do you assume your clerk was typical of all Germans? If so what does that say about you?

All no but too many. Particularly those who were indoctrinated in the Hitler youth. Which she was.

au1929'

Well recent history has shown us that most of the now fallen totalitarian states which similarly enjoyed such mass spectacles, in fact had very little support from even the uninformed populations they oppressed. I think the evidence on this point is all against you.

Besides, I like Germany & Germans - just got back from a great trip. (I don't like their current government though! - and sometimes I'm not too sure about Walter either)

If you had visted me, George, I had taken you to our monthly party meetings.There, you might have thought at some topics, we'd joined a conservative meeting.

However, you are right, I don't like one part of the govermental coalition thaaaaat much.

georgeob1
I would never want to visit Germany. Not because of what it is today but because of the ghosts of yesteryear. That may be ridiculous but I could not handle it emotionally.

au, I was disappointed to hear the reasons for your not wanting to visit Germany. As a matter of fact, most countries have been associated with one form of genocide or another, and saying you will not visit a country for their past is really harmful to yourself. I have visited seventy five countries in my travels, and I'm sure the majority of them have a sordid past - or even a contemporary one, much later than the sins of Germany. Most of Europe is now democratic, and the people of most countries, including many third world countries, understand the difference between good and bad. You must differentiate between the leaders of any country with the individuals living there. Don't forget, even native Americans were mistreated by the pioneers of this country. c.i.

Walter,

So you are a Green !! It figures. Well good luck in the emerging new coalition. Perhaps you thought the meeting was a bit conservative in tone, but me - that is a different matter. How could you and I agree on even that?



au1929,

Let go of old hatreds. They poision your own soul and do no one any good. There are ghosts everywhere, but they are only ghosts - no longer real.

Wrong guess, George, but you have another change

(Actually we are agreeing on more that it sometimes seems to be.)

Contemporary civilized and democratic Germany is the best proof that Nazism is not something immanently German; on the contrary, Germany is the least infested by the neo-Nazism if compared to the other European countries. [/i]
To Georgeob: Israel cannot be mentioned in the same list with Iran and North Korea. It is a parliamentary democracy, and the only way to change the government is to convince citizens to vote another way. No violence is needed to change the ruling coalition: it happens in average every two years (early elections are frequent here, the normal tenure of parliament is four years).
Israel allegedly possesses nuclear weapons since late '60s, but she has never used them against enemies. These weapons are nothing more than deterrent for aggressive neighbors, and signing of peace treaties with some of them was possible just because Israel allegedly had nukes: this convinced some of the Arab leaders (those of them who have good common sense) that it was absolutely impossible to eliminate Israel from the world map without committing a national suicide.

Is North Korea really planning an attack by missile of Hawaii, Alaska and California?

Of course, she is not, her rulers are not so much stupid. If the U.S. renews fuel supply to Kim Jong Il & Co., all the problem will be solved. But I guess that it will be cheaper to change a regime in Pyongyang than to supply them different free commodities for decades. Kim & Co. are nothing else than global racketeers, and their proper place is behind the bars (or on the gallows), and not in the presidential palace.

Walter, As you likely know I often have a hard time interpreting your intent correctly. So I had two choices on this one, and I guessed wrong!

Would you have me believe that the discussions of the German SDP were... conservative in their nature? Could it be that the rigid inflexibility of the labor market they created and the resulting high unemployment have finally induced a change? I would find that difficult to believe.

I will enthusiastically look for those other areas of agreement to which you referred.


Steissd,

I agree with your comments concerning totalitarian governments and your assertions with respect to the democratic character of the Israeli government. However, I do not accept the notion that Israel cannot ever be associated with other oppressive governments. Israel must decide if it wishes to be forever an exclusively (or effectively so) Jewish state. Israel operates an impressively progressively democracy for its citizens, while it rules a nearly equal number of Palestinians who have no rights at all. To me that is a serious problem.

george, I have come to the same conclusion, but I'm not sure where the solution lies - esepcially with Sharon and Arafat as leaders of their respective groups. c.i.

Georgeob, Palestinians suffer from restrictions as a result of terror war launched by their leadership against Israel. They had an opportunity to establish the independent country of their own in 2000; if Arafat was dissatisfied with proposals of PM Barak backed by President Clinton, he could have started negotiating in order to change the things he was dissatisfied with. On the contrary, he decided to launch a terror war, being inspired by unilateral withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon: he came to conclusion that pressure on Israel by means of terror may give better results than negotiations with Israel. Sieges, reoccupation of the Palestinian towns, roadblocks, etc. are just Israeli security precautions aimed to prevent infiltration of terrorists into the sovereign Israel in borders of 1967 (pre-war). Collateral damage to the Palestinian civilians stems from the fact that terrorists always establish their facilities in the middle of densely populated areas: they cynically use their own compatriots as living shields.
Israeli policies toward Palestinians do not resemble these of the apartheid regimes in S. Africa against Blacks, they are totally dependent on readiness of Palestinians to stop terror. Arabs having Israeli citizenship (about 20 percent of the Israeli population) get the same treatment the Jews get, with exception of the Returning Law that implies exclusively Jews; as a compensation, they get complete exemption from the compulsory service in the IDF.
C.I., comparison between PM Sharon and Arafat is no more correct than comparison between Hitler and any of the anti-Hitler coalition leaders (except Stalin, the latter was somewhat tantamount to the Führer, if not being worse). It is possible to come to peace with Mr. Sharon as a leader, he accepts in general the President Bush's plan regarding peace process, including establishment of the Palestinian state by side of Israel: the only thing that he argues in the plan is rigid timing. Arafat wants only one thing: complete elimination of Israel from the world map.

I never made the 'comparison' as being equal between Sharon and Arafat. However, I see Sharon as a hawk which results in killing of innocent Palestinians, and I personally find that deplorable. Too many children are being killed. c.i.

C.I., IDF is necessitated to act in the densely populated areas while hunting the terror leaders and activists, therefore collateral damage is inevitable. When terror stops, there will be no IDF activities there, hence, no civilian casualties.
About kids. You have some wrong idea on their innocence. I do not know whether this was publicized in the world media, but some days ago two armed preteen Palestinian boys were arrested on the Israeli territory (in the pre-war 1967 borders); they tried to commit a terror attack in the Israeli village, but failed, and one of them was wounded by the village security guard.
It is not something exclusive. Many rebel movements in the African countries consist mainly of kids at ages 9-16, and I have come across in Afghanistan with 10-12 y.o. boys involved in landmines planting. Being a kid does not make a person innocent by definition. Just re-read "The Clockwork Orange" to get some idea of what the kids are able to do even in absence of any war.

steissd, You evidently missed my post: I said "INNOCENT" Palestinians. c.i.

I have given some explanations on the collateral damage, to my mind. IDF makes serious attempts to minimize it, but not every time this is possible. I repeat: terror leaders and actvists set their strongholds in the middle of densely populated areas, and when there are fire exchanges between them and soldiers, some innocent people being in close vicinity may get injured or killed by erroneous bullets or fragments.

steissd, Why is it that in the US, the police rare, if ever, have "collateral damage" when rooting our killers, whereas, the Israelis have regular "collateral damage?" You mean to say that the killers in the US doesn't hide amongst the innocent? c.i.

George

Sorry for that hard time you have and had!
And well, I'm hiding those areas a little bit!
(Discussions about German politics would be a theme of a different thread.)

C.I., police and army operations differ both in scale and tactics. I cannot be more specific, otherwise my response will be transformed into a lecture on ground forces operations tactics in the urban areas.
By the way, if Saddam arranges strongholds of the Republican Guard in the middle of Baghdad, the number of Iraqi civilian casualties will also be high. But if this happens, I would rather blame Saddam, and not President Bush.
I guess, the U.S. criminals do not launch bazooka rounds on the cops. And Palestinian terrorists do (on the soldiers that try to arrest them). Therefore the treatment they get is much more intensive.