North Korea says, "sanctions means war."

BillW
Would you rather see bombs flying. Let's face inorder to get along in the world one must at times compromise. We do it on a personal level every day.
I would have been a lot easier if the there was lest bluster out of Washington.
Bush----Axis of Evil
Rumsfeld -----we can fight two wars
Bush-------I hate KIM Jong Il
Bush-------We will never negotiate.

That kind of rhetoric is diplomatic poison and better left unsaid since in all likelihood the administration will end up eating them.

What's new about North Korea threatening war? This was old news when I deployed to South Korea in the early 1980s. North Korea always threatens war to get its way and to unify its people. The fact is that such extortion has been successful in getting payoffs in the form of food, equipment, even nuclear generators. All the North Koreans need pay for such goods is a few false promises.

North Korea can not win a war with the US. It can not win a war with South Korea alone. Their leadership knows that. However, they are trapped playing a losing hand. They may not give a damn about what happens after they leave. At this moment, there is cannibalism in the hinterlands of NK, bad enough that the government was forced to declare a law against it. NK is on its last legs. It will implode just like the Soviet Union did within our lifetimes. Maybe within our next lunchtimes.

Tantor

Well said Tantor.

Tantor, Well put! However, I think your life estimate for NK is a little wee bit short. Give it another couple of years. c.i.

Welcome to the thread Tantor.

(Link at the bottom from my hometown fishwrap, the Houston Chronicle:)

"North Korea called for a "holy war against the United States" today and declared it was ready to resume missile tests and may start reprocessing spent fuel rods from its nuclear reactor to make atomic bombs.

One day after the communist North announced it was quitting an anti-nuclear pact, government leaders staged a rally in Pyongyang to declare they would seek "revenge with blood" toward any country that violates their sovereignty.

A crowd of 1 million people -- neatly packed into the capital's main plaza, adorned with anti-American banners and huge portraits of President Kim Jong Il -- erupted in chants and pumped fists toward the winter sky, shouting in unison, "We wholeheartedly support it!" "

"Holy War"

What time is lunch?

PDiddie, Why is it that I'm not personally afraid of NK? When and where will they attack? How will the US respond? c.i.

I don't know, yo no se, and I don't know, c.i.

As a comparison of the amount of fear felt between our two populaces, what do you suppose would have to happen in this country for a million people to march in support (or opposition) of anything?

The North Koreans probably are just as hungry and poor as everyone claims, which is perhaps why they are acting so crazily.

A nation of millions, starving, desperate, arming themselves with nukes.

COME ON, LUNCHTIME!

I sure hope Tantor's right, but what if he isn't?

It's the trapped and cornered animal that is most dangerous. Tantor's post sounds reasonable, but hasn't put me at ease.
As far as nukes go, I for one feel the world would have been a better place if noone had ever invented them.

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That is exactly what we have to fear.

You can stop that anytime you want -- I complete agree and well spoken commentary, incidentally. I truly hope you are correct.

I agree that the main purpose of NK's nukes are to intimidate South Korea, Japan, America, and perhaps even China. NK has been very successful at extorting concessions from naive and weak-minded politicians with threats of conventional war. Threats of nuclear war simply enlarges upon that successful strategy. It has worked. By falsely promising Clinton that they would give up nuclear development, Clinton gave them nuclear reactors that would help them develop nukes. They got some grain and fuel oil thrown in the bargain. Then they did what they were going to do all along, build nukes.

However, even though their main purpose is to threaten with their nukes, don't think they won't use them. They will. Blood means nothing to them. The North Koreans have isolated themselves to such a degree that they are ignorant of the outside world and have few bonds to what they see as a hostile outside. They think the rest of the world is poorer than them. They are like Martians with an alien knowledge of the human race and an alien sympathy for them. They would have no more resistance to dropping a nuke on us than we would have throwing a firecracker on a fire ant mound.

Tantor

GW has no foreign policy: he just calls them "axis of evil," and hopes they will go away afraid to challenge US's military might. If GW keeps shooting from the hips - like the cowboy that he is - we're going to continue to lose world support for any 'political' strategy. The UK and Australia are barely hanging on to GW's rhetoric, but given another few months, GW's gonna lose that too! c.i.

Yawn. This is normal North Korean propaganda. In fact, I'd say this seems a little less virulent than usual.

If you would like to get a taste of what the US military has to deal with in even talking to North Koreans, you might want to pick up the book, "The Long Gray Line". I think that's the title. It was published over ten years ago and follows the West Point Class of 1968. One of the stories follows a WP grad who had to deal with his NK Army counterpart on a daily basis at Panmunjom to resolve minor issues. They have a verbatim snatch of the dialogue between them that tells you everything you need to know. A few weeks later, the North Koreans killed him with an axe when he went to trim a tree in the DMZ that was obstructing the view. They beat to death the lieutenant who was with him, another WP grad.

And really, no matter what we do or say, they are going to develop their nukes. That's the key to their survival as an evil regime. They have no other cards to play. They are an economic failure. They are an agricultural failure to the point that they can not feed themselves. They are a political failure in that their bonds to the outside world have failed. Nukes are their only hope of surviving.




They can't feed their people so the next best strategy for keeping control is to find a common enemy. The less control they have the more they demonize the outside to gain control.

May I also point out that NK has no problem with violating other countries sovereignty. They constantly run commando raids into South Korea, fight naval battles with SK gunboats, and run mini-subs into the coast to land special forces in SK. They also kidnap people all over Asia to teach their spies about the outside world or to make movies.



You can not get a million people to do anything without force. Heck, you can't get everyone in your office to go to lunch together at the same place even if they like each other. It's important to remember that when you see masses of people cheering in a North Korean rally it is the result of coercion, not popular opinion. This point seems lost on most news anchors.

However, in North Korea, attendance at the anti-American or pro-Kim Il Sung rally is mandatory. Each block has an informer, a block captain, who keeps track of you. Often it is an old lady who, instead of spreading gossip about you like she might in America, can have you put in prison if she doesn't like the looks of you. She knows if you went to the rally. She might even know if you refused to cheer. If your reluctance to support the regime catches her notice, maybe she will have your ration coupons cut to encourage you to get with the program. And you better be wearing your Kim Il Sung button on your lapel.

If your food could be cut, if you could be put in prison, if your family was at risk, you better believe you would be down there at the mandatory government rally, pumping your fist in the air, shouting, "We wholeheartedly support it!"

Repression works.

Tantor

Total repression works. Partial repression stimulates revolts. This has nothing to do with the direction of the discussion, but also does not take up much space.

I suppose one reason why you are not afraid of North Korea is that you are not in the military and consequently are not at risk. Perhaps nobody you know is in the military so your personal stake is nonexistent.

The North Koreans have massive forces stationed along the border, as they always have, positioned for attack. They have dug jeep-sized tunnels under the DMZ, some of which we have found, to infiltrate their special forces into SK. They also have hundreds of old Soviet trimotor biplanes built of wood and fabric, hard to see on radar, that they plan to use to land commandos near air bases to destroy the jets and aircrews.

NK has an outsized special forces which they intend to use to sow panic in the rear of the battlefield. The purpose of this is to force the civilian population to turn refugee and clog the roads, blocking them from use by South Korean and American military reinforcements. They have ten thousand artillery tubes within range of Seoul which would basically reduce it to rubble and push more refugees onto the roads. And of course, among those refugees would be hundreds of armed North Korean agents who would fire at US & SK forces, forcing them to treat all refugees as hostile, further complicating our problem in moving through the refugees to the battlefield. It also has the advantage to the Communists of sowing political discord in the enemy camp by giving the left examples of atrocities committed by our troops in the confusion of sorting out friend from foe. The atrocities the NK army commits, by contrast, would be downplayed by the liberal media, if covered at all.

The North Koreans would have a few days of wild success, tearing up Seoul and big patches of the northern part of South Korea. Then our air force would destroy their airfields and military bases, sever their supply routes, hunt down their armor, and burn out any troops who were so foolish to concentrate. We would decisively win. The North Koreans have no chance of winning. If they even came close, we would nuke them. I know. I was one of the guys who would fly one of the nukes to its target.

However, it would be an ugly win with millions dead. Millions. It would also open up a problem with Red China, which just might object to conquering American soldiers casually pissing into the Yalu River, gazing into China on the other side.


Tantor

The reason I'm not afraid: Your stmt, "The North Koreans would have a few days of wild success, tearing up Seoul and big patches of the northern part of South Korea. Then our air force would destroy their airfields and military bases, sever their supply routes, hunt down their armor, and burn out any troops who were so foolish to concentrate. We would decisively win. The North Koreans have no chance of winning. If they even came close, we would nuke them. I know. I was one of the guys who would fly one of the nukes to its target." If they are foolish enough to commit suicide, it's their choice, not mine. No, I don't know of any friends or family in the service right now, but that doesn't make any difference. I'm against war of any kind, but if NK is stupid enough to start one, I know that we will win it. c.i.

I didn't actually write that, Tantor, someone with the Associated Press did; it's linked at the bottom of the post of mine you sampled. I think I'll go back and edit that so that no one else makes the mistake of thinking that's anything but excerpted news.

Based on your insightful description of how protests are organized in that nation, I will commend the North Koreans for being able to coordinate such a protest so effectively when they're all starving and miserable. Ya gotta admit, that takes some commitment and hard work. Not to mention a lot of organizational skills. And a heapin' helpin' o' cowardice. (Why didn't they just storm the dais while they had the chance?)

Let's get back on the topic so that no one assumes I'm a Commie sympathizer:

Since you feel that we have nothing to worry about as it relates to the DPRK (am I interpreting you correctly?), that they will collapse of their own emaciated, corrupt weight, my only question is:

What do we do if you're mistaken?

BTW, No, I'm not at risk, but my brothers and I have served in the US military. We didn't question "risk" when we served. Now it's somebody else's turn. What's your point? c.i.