are we really that naive?

I didn't say everything always was perfect and all articles were implemented and practiced. But I did say Constitution is a recipe.
In respect to immigrants, you can't be a citizen if you reject any part of Constitution. Born citizens, can talk all they want, but shouldn't hold any offce without accepting and withholding Constitution.



Apart from ... well yes, hijacking marriage into something different, applying favoritizm to race, to religion, and to sexual preferences. All you have to do, is to ask, for a job in the city hall if you are not black or hispanic. Or go to place like San Francisco to see if you get a building permit for Catholic church. It won't happen. But try the same with a mosque, and you can started tomorrow.


What ever happened to "one man, one woman" law? How would you call that ?



No doubt some of them weren't christians, but did you ever heard the Pledge of Allegiance?
That treaty and its articled 11... I tell you, that's not the Constitution, and history holds some inconsistencies. Ther is no guarantee that no one ever will record things that simply wasn't so. Argome, we had a bunch of treatys with Indians here. Do you really expected wording there to reflect all our good intentions? We have still decimated them.



If you would be a woman then yes. For instance, I would not want to go to the same public bathroom where you go.

Let me tell you something very simple Agrome which might give you, Frank, and others a little better understanding of what I can see clearly and you... somehow not.
In the reality no one has ever same rights. If you are president you have more rights then private individual. Same with different classes, genders, and groups: wemen are wemen, men are men, and gays are gays and I can't help them with that. They should not expect to get married just like I should not expect to be exempt from income texas, as american Indians are. Or receiving all the other benefits given to them. I'm not complaining. I also don't expect to get any affirmative action benefits like black people are getting.
I AM WHITE HETEROSEXUAL MALE AND NON MUSLIM, NON INDIAN. I was born that way... just like gays are born gays. So for me all the goodies are out of window. Why gays can't accept the fact that they are gays??? Wat's the deal here?

Definition of Ideal
1.
a conception of something in its perfection.
2.
a standard of perfection or excellence.
3.
a person or thing conceived as embodying such aconception or conforming to such a standard, andtaken as a model for imitation:
Thomas Jefferson was his ideal.


You use words like ideal and perfection.



I haven’t mentioned anything about immigrants, aren’t we talking about US citizens?



You keep saying high jacking marriage into something different –what is this difference? Marriage is a contract between different parties.
The idea that you can just ask for a job by just walking in city hall if you are black or Hispanic is an over simplification at best and at worse an out and out lie and racist. It also shows a lack of understanding and a lack of knowing American history.

What buildings permits were denied in San Francisco to a Catholic church and what were the reasons given as to why they were denied?

You keep bringing p religious references yet you maintain your opposition to gay marriages isn’t religiously influenced?
What ever happened to "one man, one woman" law? How would you call that ?
These are state laws not Constitutional laws. And many states are changing their laws as we have seen in States like mine… which happens to be New York.



I didnot realize you were such a shy person. Are you one of those guys who looks over your shoulder when you use the public men’s room? LOL But more seriously, have you ever been to a major event like a sporting event where the lines to get in and use the bathroom goes around the bend?
I’ve seen the line leading to the ladies bath room do this and any some ladies will use the men’s room and no one makes a big deal about it. Perhaps it is what we call maturity? What happens if you are in a place that only has one bathroom? You aren’ going to use it if you see a woman work out of it just before you go in?
Tell me do you waste mental effort on such trivial stuff?
Are you the kind of person that will cut off your nose to spite your face? So if you had to go to a public bathroom to go where one of these people go do you think you can hold your business… and for how long?




You don’t like being called a bigot thought you hold bigoted and racist views. You are now shouting and ranting and you show a lack of understanding of not only American history and an inability to understand how thing like affirmative action came about. Or perhaps you just don’t care. You show a lack of empathy. You have not show one reasonable logical explanation for your position, one that is nothing more than an emotional rant. You are blaming others for you own short comings and insecurities.

You sound like all those white guys who feel that somehow others are stealing from you, denying you things that somehow if all things were equal, equal in your eyes, that you would somehow achieve, not ever thinking that you arrived at your own destination merely on your own merits or lack thereof.

Your argument is old and tiresome. When I said to you that gays want equal rights under the same laws you did a 180 and suggested special treatment for them. Yet you rail against special treatment. You can’t have it both ways.

I’m retired. I paid my taxes and never got a job because of affirmative action. So your theory of blacks and etc doesn’t hold water.

You’re full of hate. I hope for your sake in the future it doesn’t come back and bites you in the ass.

Many gays do accept the fact that they are gay. It is you who can’t accept them or Blacks or Hispanic it seems for that matter.

Well I’m Black

For future reference if you continue to deny that you are a racist there is always this post to show the contrary. it is out here on the internet for all to see.
You can not defend your position with any semblance of reason other then your emotional, hateful and distaste for Blacks, gays and Hispanics etc.

No Sir, it is not over simplification nor lie, but it is straight reality, as much as you would hate to see it, and yes, it is racist but reverse racist, in case you don't never heard this term.
Regarding American history -- I do have a knowledge and understanding of our history perhaps better then you do.

But before we go any farther, let's make one thing straight here. For you pulling race card on me, is very ludicrous and hipocritical to say the least. First I'm NOT full of hate, like you said" just because I dare to point the facts. AND I said: "I'm not complaining...". Second it is very typical for left to start racism talk when arguing different topics. Finally how dere you call me racist! My very close friend, perhaps the best I ever had, John R., is black also. And he IS liberal democrat!! Brain washed all his life, but... we are always having the best time discussing politics, and always arguing tooth and nail who is right. Proudly, I have to say that he is finally starting to get a grip of what's happening in the country.
Plus most of my best customers are also black. We all treat each other like a one family.


About me being shy.... well no, that is not the point. The point is however, that if you at the airport for instance, and you step in ladies bathroom, you might be arrested as pervert.

Not at the game, but I was at the beach once in situation like you described (urge to go). Man, I tell you, I was in that line, and whichever door open first -- I was inn. It was... ladies, but I was NOT seeking any reaction. They could talk or think whatever... to hell with them! So I know what you mean.




Good for you! And I'm proud of you just as I am proud of John. That being said my theory is NOT about blacks and NOT, that all of them are milking the system, but about the very existence of the system. Some even argue that it is insulting to blacks. ... just to make it clear.

Do no, I'm not a rasist or bigot.

It was you who brought of race then and now and your other racist attitudes not me.

Whether or not you ever admit it or not you are a racist and a bigot. It is clearly evident by your own words. Are Muslims and Indians and gays bad people? why do you need to even mention and qualify these statements if you aren't a racist?

I doubt you have any understanding of American History, something you've proven time and time again. You are too emotionally charge to make a valid and sane interpretation of that history.

why do you think you have been criticized by many on this site?

Your entire argument is solely an emotional out burst, an irrational rant with no evidence to support your position.

You use terms like hypocrisy when it has been you who all along. It has been you the being hypocrite. You speak of equality save when it doesn't suit your position.

Show me where I have been hypocrite?

Are you hinting that I am politically to the left? Well you don't know anything. I'm apolitical. I'm neither conservative, nor liberal, not democrat, nor republican, nor independent, nor tea party, nor right, nor left etc.

I don't even vote.

I'm not even sure I am a humanist or even a secular humanist.
But I do have my own set of values.

Ask your black friend John R. to read the entirety of this post and let me know what he thinks?

Do you know who Rosa Park is?
Do you know what the Jim Crow laws of the South were?
Do you think that if a law is immoral that Civil disobedience is ok?

If you were to enter a race and you had to run with your feet tied together would you be ok with that?

if you constantly lagged behind, denied the same priviledges as others and freedoms, and always the threat of bodily harm present, your family ripped apart and always put at a disadvantage, because others forced you into that situation, would you be ok with that?

And if you were denied an education, you were not allowed to learn how to read...?

Do you know why and understand why affirmative action was started...unfair as it seems?

Do you know what woman suffrage is and that it lasted until the 20th century?

Did you know that women couldn't own property at one time?
Yet women were considered property -and treated as such

So with these changes do you think that makes the USA worse?

You got it! I won't see him till Monday though. But thanks for the suggestion Argome. It'll be fun to see what he say. Lol
My bet is, he is going to support you -- knowing him. But... I just don't how he is going to react on you calling me racist. I do think, John will stick with you on the bigot part. But I would say you both wrong.

I'll tell you Monday.

What was the purpose of all your questions in your last post, Argome?
My impression is, you are presenting shameful, horible past from the history assuming I am not aware of slavery existed. You forgot, I wasn't born here. And when you guys had segregation going on here in '60s, and dicrimination against blacks, I was in school learning about all of that without rosie glasses.

I really don't know what to tell you to heal the soaring wounds of history Agrome... yeah we had some dark days in our history here. Well ... hell... 1,264,000 mainly white Americans died for the couse of not only keeping the union but also freeing the slaves. 100 years later we still had rasism and inequality. Than, things got better, but not before Dr. M.L. King paid for it with his life. Almost half a century later we are having rasism coming in different form, spewing by no one else, but... our ownadministration. It is sad to see this happeninng...

Now it is being injected into people heads that even talking or mentioning about rase in any shape or form, is... rasist itself.

Unfortunately we are not going to solve any issues without talking about it.

Maybe we are slightly going of the subject, but that's a good discussion Argome.

I know, you said not being political, but in any case, if you would ever decide to vote, I'd especially urge you to consider Dr. Carson, very noble black man. He might run for president nice alternative to Obama.

What a lot of name calling emotional poorly thought out bullshit . Gays should not be married . They should have a legal definition that gives each partner the rights of a married couple, except for adoption .

If gays want to marry...why not let them marry?

Why are you saying they should not be married?

Yeey!!! Finally someone with common sense here! God thought, and that's exactly what I was arguing. For a while I was thinking that EVERYONE lost their mind.

No one here has lost his/her mind...unless you have.

You and Ionus agree that gays should not be allowed to marry.

I ask you both: Why not?

What is wrong with gays being allowed to marry...other than the fact that you two (and a minority of the population) do not like it?

Because they are gays, GAYS Frank! But we allready discussed this.

You've simply said that YOU do not want gays to marry.

But you have not come up with any reasonable arguments for denying gays the right to marry.

Why do you care if gays marry?

What does it do to you?

Frank, similarly if we have laws... why not to keep them?

Because sometimes the "laws" are not the laws we should have.

At one time we had laws that allowed for slavery...and for returning escaped slaves to their OWNERS.

We changed that, because the law sucked.

At one time we had laws that outlawed alcoholic beverages.

We changed that, because people wanted to drink booze.

Now...gays want the right to marry...and there are laws in many states that give them that right.

So...what is your problem with changing laws that have outlived their usefullness?

My problem with it, is that we are undermining our core principles on which this country was built and we are turning it to a joke. From this point the on nothing is serious anymore here. Our foundations becoming very fragile. You can't possibly compare slavery here, which was left over from ancient times to give marriage licenses to anybody who ask for it.
Today you might disagree with marriage between man and a horse for instance, and probably tell me how ridiculous example that is. But tomorrow there will be another Frank, who will ask: " if he wants to marry horse... why not let him?"

Yes we ARE transforming, yet we have to keep some ballance.
It is very sad that so many people don't see it that way.

Sorry, something got screwed up in my text.
It should be:
"From this point on nothing is serious anymore here."

And:
"You can't possibly compare slavery here, which was left over from ancient times. It is ludicrous to give marriage licenses to anybody who ask for it."

In your mind...but not in the minds of many people in our country.

To many of us, not only are we NOT undermining our core principles on which this country was built...by granting the right to marry to gays...

...we are furthering and enforcing those core principles.

Equality...and freedom of minorities from the possible oppression of a majority.

Get used to gay marriage, Andy.

That train has already left the station.

why not let somebody marry a horse or a toaster, how does that affect me or you

Well was I that far from the truth saying "there will be another Frank.."?

Here is what djjt62 just said