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What would happen to your unprotected body in outer space?

 
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2004 03:10 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Heliotrope wrote:
neil wrote:
heat by convection and conduction does not occur in vacuum. Radiation only. Neil

This is incorrect.
Heat transfer by conduction does indeed occur.
It is only convection that is prevented because there is no gravity gradient..
Radiative heat transfer continues normally.

Sorry, not sure how the absence of a gravity gradient would prevent convection. Sounds incorrect.

Okie cokie.
Let me tell you what happens when you have a candle burning in space.

First off the flame is spherical.
The flame heats the air immediately around it.
Now hot air rises as it is less dense. Cold air falls.
Falls with what ?
Gravity of course.
So if there is no gravity (or microgravity) then the cold air cannot fall to replace the hot air building up around the hot flame.
Eventually what happens if the candle is left undisturbed is that it burns all the oxygen in it's local area of about a cubic litre and goes out !
If you blow on it and disturb the layers of hot, oxygen free air and the cold oxygen rich air surrounding that then the wick will relight. And the candle bursts into flame again.
The wick stays hot because radiative heat transfer is very poor so the wick stays hot but as there's no oxygen it isn't burning anymore. It's still above the temperature of ignition however.
Add oxygen and it bursts into flame again.
Leave it alone and it goes out.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2004 03:19 pm
This may be true of candles, however, convection, which simply means the transfer of heat by the motion of matter, as a phenomenon, works perfectly in space. Whether it would be any kind of factor for an exposed body is another matter, but the phenomenon of convection works just fine. For instance, water might boil off your tongue, taking its heat with it.

Convection, in general, does not depend on gravity, and certainly not on the "gradient" of a gravitional field.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2004 03:21 pm
Well, it seems that the consensus here is that you do indeed explode. The best part of the fantasy is that you can't hear your victims scream when they are in space. So, you just watch them moving their mouths about in strange twitches, and you can hear your own veangeful laughter.
0 Replies
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2004 03:26 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
This may be true of candles, however, convection, which simply means the transfer of heat by the motion of matter, as a phenomenon, works perfectly in space.Convection, in general, does not depend on gravity, and certainly not on the "gradient" of a gravitional field.



OK. You go tell that to the astronauts who tried it and then pass your refutation onto NASA who conducted the relevant experiments.
Why do you think they have air moving mechanisms in space vehicles ?
To stop pockets of dead and stale air building up and making everyone feel awful.
You can't have convection when there is no gravity.
Nothing can fall and nothing can rise in the absence of a gravitational field or gradient.
Saying gradient was just the precise way of excluding all sorts of petty nit-picking about microgravity where you're in a gravitational field but don't feel it's effects because you're falling at the same rate as the acceleration of the field.

Go do some research before making pronouncements.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jun, 2004 06:12 pm
Heliotrope wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
This may be true of candles, however, convection, which simply means the transfer of heat by the motion of matter, as a phenomenon, works perfectly in space.Convection, in general, does not depend on gravity, and certainly not on the "gradient" of a gravitional field.

OK. You go tell that to the astronauts who tried it and then pass your refutation onto NASA who conducted the relevant experiments.
Why do you think they have air moving mechanisms in space vehicles ?
To stop pockets of dead and stale air building up and making everyone feel awful.
You can't have convection when there is no gravity.
Nothing can fall and nothing can rise in the absence of a gravitational field or gradient.
Saying gradient was just the precise way of excluding all sorts of petty nit-picking about microgravity where you're in a gravitational field but don't feel it's effects because you're falling at the same rate as the acceleration of the field.

Go do some research before making pronouncements.

Convection is defined as the transfer of heat via the motion of matter. There may be specific situations in which convection is related to gravity. There may be specific situations in which convection is dependent on any number of factors, or not. But convection as a physical phenomenon is not specifically related to gravity, since it only means the transfer of heat through the transfer of matter which contains heat. If a human is in space, in zero gravity, without a space suit, the moisture on his tongue may boil off into space, taking heat with it. This proves that convection can occur in the absence of gravity. He may vomit, and lose heat in the former contents of his stomach. Whether convection is a large source of heat loss is a separate issue from whether convection can occur without gravity or without a gravitational gradient.

The word gradient in science, means the rate of change of something per unit distance. You can have regions of very strong gravity, but no gradient. You are using this term incorrectly.
0 Replies
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 04:40 am
Brandon9000 wrote:

Convection is defined as the transfer of heat via the motion of matter.

This is from Microsoft's dictioary which personally I don't think is any good but it's the easiest thing to hand and I can't be bothered going and finding anything more detailed as you don't deserve a better explanation.

con·vec·tion [k?n véksh?n]
n
1. circulatory motion in liquid or gas: circulatory movement in a liquid or gas, resulting from regions of different temperatures and different densities rising and falling in response to gravity
2. meteorology heat transfer leading to cloud formation: heat transfer within the atmosphere involving the upward movement of huge volumes of warm air, leading to subsequent condensation and cloud formation


[Mid-19th century. From the late Latin stem convection- , from Latin convehere ?to bring together,? from vehere ?to carry? (source of English vehicle).]
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Quote:
If a human is in space, in zero gravity, without a space suit, the moisture on his tongue may boil off into space, taking heat with it. This proves that convection can occur in the absence of gravity.

Dear me.
The moisture boils because of the low pressure.
The process is this :
Boiling occurs when bubbles form within the body of the liquid. These bubbles in the absence of gravity stay where they formed and get bigger.
They increase in size. this means that some of the molecules have a velocity. When the bubbles get so big that parts of them break the surface of the liquid then the surface tension of the liquid will pull parts of the liquid back to the main body of the liquid while some will be left behind with the velocity they had when the bubble reached the surface. This causes some parts of the liquid to be flung away from the tongue.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with convection.
It is the same thing as a small explosion which in space happens in a sphere. A very small explosion I'll grant you.

Quote:
The word gradient in science, means the rate of change of something per unit distance. You can have regions of very strong gravity, but no gradient.

I'll say this very slowly so you can understand it.
No
You
Can't.

Quote:
You are using this term incorrectly.


Oh I see.

gra·di·ent [gráydee ?nt]
n (plural gra·di·ents)
1. slope: an upward or downward slope, for example, in a road or railroad
2. steepness: the rate at which the steepness of a slope increases
3. physics measure of change: a measure of change in a physical quantity such as temperature or pressure over a specified distance
4. biology rate of growth: any of a series of changes in the rate of growth or metabolism of an organism, cell, or organ
5. mathematics slope on a curve: the slope of a line or a tangent at any point on a curve

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Regions of very strong gravity, or indeed any strength of gravity, are all subject to the Inverse Square Law. I trust you are aware of that ?
This means that the closer you are to the gravitating body the stronger the gravity gets and the further away you are the les it gets.
Over very small scales there isn't much difference but thereis a difference.
Where there is a difference in gravitational field strength there is a gravity gradient.
Gradient/slope/steepness/change.....

As I said I used the term gradient because in orbit you are still within the Earth's gravitational field. You are not feeling the field because you're falling at the same rate as the field's accelleration. Just as you don't feel any gravity when you're falling off a high building.
The field is still there though.
If the gravity gradient was steep enough then things would fall towards the side of your space vessel that was facing the gravitating body. The back wall would follow as in a field strong enough to create a noticeable gradient across a spaceship 3 metres wide would be phenomenally strong and you'd have only seconds to live before you yourself were crushed flat and the back wall of the craft crushed you between it and the wall facing the object.
You'd still be orbiting because of your velocity. It'd have to be a very high velocity because of the intense gravity. But you'd still be in effetively zero gravity because of your velocity but within the field.
This is what gravitational tidal forces are.
0 Replies
 
Slappy Doo Hoo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 07:16 am
And I thought I had way too much time on my hands...
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 08:29 am
Heliotrope wrote:
It is only convection that is prevented because there is no gravity gradient...


That is the statement I take exception to.

Convection

Here is NASA's definition of convection at http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/space/teachers/microgravity/MGprimN1.html :

"Heat transfer by convection is the movement of heat by motion of a fluid. This motion can he the result of some force, such as a pump circulating heated water, and is referred to as forced convection. If the motion is the result of differences in density (thermal or compositional), the convection is referred to as buoyancy-driven, density-driven, or natural convection."

Here is one from the University of Indiana Department of Physics at http://physics.indiana.edu/~p221s01/summaries/chap13_summary.pdf :

"Conduction is the flow of heat through a material
Convection is heat transfer via a moving material.
Radiation is heat transfer via photons."

The Boiling of Liquids in Vacuum
When heat is applied to a liquid, the temperature of the liquid rises until the vapor pressure of the liquid equals the pressure of the surrounding gases. At this point there is no further rise in temperature, and the additional heat energy supplied is absorbed as latent heat of vaporization to transform the liquid into gas. The boiling point of a liquid is lowered if the pressure of the surrounding gases is decreased. This is why liquids boil in vacuuum.

Hence, if the lowered boiling point of water in a vacuum causes saliva to boil off your tongue, and take its heat with it, this would be an example of heat tranfer by convection, demonstrating that the phenomenon of convection is unrelated to gravity.


Gradient3. Physics.
a. the rate of change with respect to distance of a variable quantity, as temperature or pressure, in the direction of maximum change.
b. a curve representing such a rate of change.


4. Math.a differential operator that, operating upon a function of several variables, results in a vector the coordinates of which are the partial derivatives of the function."


Furthermore, as hinted at in definition 4, in vector calculus, a discipline often used to analyze field phenomena such as gravity, the gradient operator is specifically defined as the vector sum of the rate of change of field strength with distance in each of the three spatial directions.


There may be some situations in which convection depends on gravity, or any number of factors, or not. But the general phenomenon of convection, being the transfer of heat via the movement of matter containing heat, has nothing to do with gravity, and can occur in the absence of gravity. The magnitude of gravitational field strength, and the gradient (distance rate of change) of gravitational field strength are distinct concepts, and, in physics, one often considers a region of uniform field with no gradient. Field intensity, and distance rate of change of field intensity are not the same thing. In the presence of one spherical mass, like the Earth, the field strength would be inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the center of the mass. In the presence of several masses, the field strength would be the vector sum of all the fields and might be quite complex in form.


Convection as a phenomenon in physics has nothing to do with gravity, and has less than nothing to do with the gradient of the field strength.
0 Replies
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 12:53 pm
Dear god.
You really are an idiot.
All those definitions of converction you've posted are dependent up on them being in a gravitational field and subject to that field like on Earth.

I hereby wash my hands of this.
I will not indulge idiocy and ignorance any further.
I suggest you get yourself an education and then it will all become clear.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jun, 2004 01:18 pm
Heliotrope wrote:
Dear god.
You really are an idiot.
All those definitions of converction you've posted are dependent up on them being in a gravitational field and subject to that field like on Earth.

I hereby wash my hands of this.
I will not indulge idiocy and ignorance any further.
I suggest you get yourself an education and then it will all become clear.

Convection is defined as heat transfer via the motion of matter. This is not dependent on gravity. One of the definitions I posted refers to using a pump to move hot liquid, the other defines convection simply as the transfer of heat via the motion of material. How do you get gravity dependence from this?

I am assuming that my MS and BS in Physics is sufficient education in the field. You are wrong, and you know it, and merely lack the integrity to admit it.
0 Replies
 
Col Man
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 10:35 pm
whatever the reality im into the 'pop' theory myself
Smile Very Happy Wink
0 Replies
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 03:10 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
I am assuming that my MS and BS in Physics is sufficient education in the field. You are wrong, and you know it, and merely lack the integrity to admit it.


Your assumption is patently and palpably incorrect.

Do not question my integrity.
Your qualifications are as nothing to actual experience and experiment.

Read first.
Educate yourself.

http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/special/2004/yoda/index.shtml

http://www.qrg.nwu.edu/projects/vss/docs/thermal/2-does-heat-move-differently-in-space.html

http://www.shuttlepresskit.com/ISS_OVR/

http://www.nsbri.org/HumanPhysSpace/focus1/spaceshuttle-personal.html

http://yesican.yorku.ca/home/convectnotes.html

http://www.physicscentral.com/action/action-02-1b.html


If I am wrong then so are the greatest physicists in human history.
If I am wrong then so are the greatest experimentalists in human history.
If I am wrong then so are all the scientists and experimenters who have performed the relevant experiments.
If I am wrong then so are the astronauts who also performed the experiments.
If I am wrong then physical law is wrong.
If I am wrong then every single one of the people above has been deluded and is misguided and has failed to observe the facts as they truly are.

If I am wrong then prove it.
0 Replies
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 03:11 am
OK. So I caved in.
But I'm a teacher at heart. Even if I'm not a very good one.
0 Replies
 
Col Man
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 03:30 am
dont worry heliotrope it happens to us all Wink
i like what you say anyway Very Happy
and i wouldnt be so hard on y'self Shocked
its not possible to get on with everyone all the time
thats life
ps i like the links..helps me anyway
you cant get enough knowlege
and theres no end to learning
peace and love
byeeeeeeeee
ps you can always delete your post if you think its too erm well whatever it is Smile
0 Replies
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 03:37 am
Delete it ?
No way.
I say what I mean and mean what I say.
I have no need to change history.

Apologies but I'm in a bit of a combative mood today.
Gawd knows what's going to happen in the studio when I get there. The engineer is a fairly dour chappie and doesn't have much of a sense of humour.
Hehehehe. Looks like it might be better for me to stay home. At least for him.
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Col Man
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 03:41 am
ok dude Smile
well have a good day whatever you do
i say take it out on the drums Wink
0 Replies
 
Heliotrope
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 12:51 pm
Drums given a damn good beating and even the engineer left with a smile on his face.
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Tobruk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jun, 2004 05:11 pm
In space your blood would boil because there's be no atmospheric pressure.

Your lungs would burst due to no outside pressure.

You would not explode.

You would lose heat by radiating it out. Otherwise dead stars would shine forever.
0 Replies
 
neil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 05:48 am
Some dictionaries and text books not withstanding, IMHO, convection is heat tranfer by movement of matter is too broad a defintion, otherwuise moving my warm food from my plate to my mouth is covection. Neil
0 Replies
 
flyboy804
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 06:43 am
What if we were to insert the word "natural" between "by" and "movement"?
0 Replies
 
 

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