Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2015 05:36 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali_Nine

I'm a bit torn over this, wondering what everyone else's thoughts are.

"Yes" I get that they were trafficking drugs and not light drugs and not a small quantity, at around 24 years of age.

"Yes" I get that, they knew the rules of Indonesia where drugs are concerned, however, they were bringing them "out" of Indonesia, not into Indonesia and there is no mention of their efforts in trying to locate the girl "then 22" that they believed supplied the drugs, nor where they stemmed from.

Did these guys "think" that once they hit Australia, if caught, it's just jail time only.

What about Scott Rush's Father, who dobbed him in, to try to save him from travelling to Bali only to have the AFP, in turn not wait for them all to arrive back in Australia, but to inform Indonesia who ultimately caught them. How would a Father feel?

It's not so much that they have proved to grow up into better men, helping other prisoners becoming a Pastor or teaching painting.

It's that 10 years have gone by on Death Row. I appreciate that these are not the only death row cases that go on and on.

But, a person changes or doesn't as they mature and a person on Death Row if that is the law, should not live another 10 years to then be told they are to be executed.

False hope.

Do you think that Australia did wrong by telling Indonesia knowing that the price is death? It was a lot of heroin.

Do you think 10 years is too long?

Tony Abbott threatening Indonesia, wrong?

I also think that Indonesia are going over the top... All the police, air crafts, to transfer them imagine how that would feel.

I also "heard" that there will be 12 cops with rifles only two loaded. I wonder if they will torment them at that last moment.

Do the crime pay the time. I agree with. This just to me is way out there.

I'm also thinking there will be anger and outrage and don't even want to guess what will happen next.

Lastly, I am thinking Australia's threat created this day.





 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 09:04 pm
It's certainly been in the news a lot. I can't even give a definitive answer from my own perspective, just my rambling thoughts.

We don't have the death penalty in Australia. Should there be a referendum on it's return, and it's important to note that that is not likely to ever happen, I would vote against it.

These guys are guilty. They apparently used significant intimidation to get others involved. Had their endeavour been successful, one suspects they would have reaped a significant payday, and not given a **** about the consequences. And they did it through a nation that's penalties for drug trafficking are well known. On that score, it's hard to have sympathy for them.

The galling part is Indonesia's antics. The transfer from the prison in
Bali to the island where they are to be executed was carried out as a major paramilitary operation, with even a jet fighter escort for the plane. And a senior officer having smiling selfies with the prisoners. I couldn't help but get the feeling that this was a pathetic and immature attempt to wave a great big one-fingered salute at Australia. A 3rd world **** hole trying to stand up with the big boys. Australia may not be a world super power, but the fact is that Indonesia's dicks aren't big enough to get into a pissing contest with us.

The moron Abbott raised previous aid that we'd given them. Probably stupid, but most of what he says and does is. That said, I wouldn't be unhappy to see all Australian aid end to this country, because ultimately it's a population that doesn't share our values, and basically uses it's Moslem morals to look down on us.

In conclusion, not a great deal of sympathy, but those Indonesian pricks can go **** themselves.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 09:25 pm
@Wilso,
Thanks for replying, I gathered it wasn't something people are interested in answering as not many Australians here Smile

Quote:
They apparently used significant intimidation to get others involved


This appeared on a friends face-book page today and really rocked me.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869230/Bali-Nine-ringleader-Andrew-Chan-mastermind-international-drug-deal-went-horribly-wrong-threatened-17-year-old-mule-Hong-Kong-jail-mouth-shut.html

Quote:
Chan sent threats from Kerobokan jail to Diaz's Hong Kong prison cell, telling her to keep her 'mouth shut'
Chan set up at least 17 young Australians who were arrest on heroin charges
He was part of a 'predatory crime syndicate' which recruited young people as drug mules


It can also be revealed that after his own arrest, Chan wrote a letter to Diaz in Hong Kong, ordering her to keep her mouth shut.



I have been unable to locate anything further that confirms all of this with their "names". To use a 15 and 17 year old if true, to smuggle heroin mmm. Not sure what I think about that now.

If the contents of this link is true, then it wasn't a case of them taking drugs out of Indonesia for the first time (masterminds or not) rather, it appears they had previously succeeded.

Having said that my sympathy is the same as most, that being, I don't believe in the death penalty. If the above is factual, they are either awesome actors or, truly have re-habilitated. I think they should remain in jail for life. We are also dealing with parents losing children.

Quote:


The galling part is Indonesia's antics. The transfer from the prison in
Bali to the island where they are to be executed was carried out as a major paramilitary operation, with even a jet fighter escort for the plane. And a senior officer having smiling selfies with the prisoners. I couldn't help but get the feeling that this was a pathetic and immature attempt to wave a great big one-fingered salute at Australia.


I agree. Strangely I expected that to happen to be honest. The selfies. And I do believe the "word out" that 12 soldiers with guns will be in attendance but only 2 will have bullets at the executions. And, I truly visualise them taunting and laughing and playing it out. The selfies justified my thoughts.

Quote:
The moron Abbott raised previous aid that we'd given them. Probably stupid, but most of what he says and does is. That said, I wouldn't be unhappy to see all Australian aid end to this country, because ultimately it's a population that doesn't share our values, and basically uses it's Moslem morals to look down on us.



As far as I am concerned that is what triggered the major operation and that also bothers me. Regardless of what these boys have done and punishment, I can only imagine their shock when they were led from prison and fear.

So ridiculous and yes, Abbott is an idiot. We all know that. He's done a lot of stupid things of late.


Quote:
but the fact is that Indonesia's dicks aren't big enough to get into a pissing contest with us.


Smile
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 09:27 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
I think the death penalty is indefensible wherever it is done.

I think Abbott threatening Indonesia is infuriatingly stupid.

I think the drama and posturing of the manner in which the guys were transported was abhorrent.

I think they were dumb to traffic drugs.

Sounds as though it would have been better in some ways if they had been arrested in Oz...though if they had been they'd probably be much worse people that they are now, although they's live longer.

I think it's three live bullets.

Ten years on death row is weird wherever it occurs. At least in Indonesia they weren't in solitary all that time which I think...correct me if I am wrong...is the case for people on death row in the US, whether it be 4 or 40 years?

I don't know if Abbott's threat created this....I think the Indonesian president was pretty keen to kill them no matter what. Kind of like pissing in the international corner to mark your territory. It may have made him more determined though. Who knows?

Humans often suck.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 10:00 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:

Did these guys "think" that once they hit Australia, if caught, it's just jail time only.


I very much doubt they even considered the possibility of getting caught. It takes a certain mentality to be a crook or drug runner.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2015 06:10 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
....I think the Indonesian president was pretty keen to kill them no matter what


And, then, he, did!!

Ferk.......................

Disgusted, angry, waste of lives, idiots, family hearing the shots, crap, bullshit.

Feel better now.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2015 08:05 pm
The family didn't hear the shots. There's no facilities on the island for tourists to stay. They were back on the main land.

Regarding my earlier post, and Indonesia's attempt to wave their middle finger at Australia, the announcement of the their pending executions was made on Anzac day, probably the most important day in Australia's calendar, and despite pleas for them not to make the announcement on that day. Apparently there's $600M AUD set aside for aid to Indonesia this year. The government should put it into programs in Australia. **** em'.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2015 08:41 pm
@Wilso,
You are correct, in as much as they weren't there but other Parents to the others that were executed were.

I almost feel like they are also making a stance by freeing one person.

It didn't register to me they announced that on Australia Day. Cunning, manipulative creeps.



Quote:
6am - Families could hear the gunshots


In chilling detail from Indonesia’s execution island, it has been revealed the grieving families of some condemned prisoners could hear the gunfire that killed their loved ones.

A marquee was set up for families on the opposite side of Nusakambangan Island, far away from the firing range where the eight condemned men would be killed.

But the distance failed to muffle the sound, and the already anguished family members heard the shots. Witnesses say they became distraught.


http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/the-executions-of-bali-nine-duo-andrew-chan-and-myuran-sukumaran/story-fnh81fz8-1227325701195






cherrie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2015 10:58 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Like so many other people I am also in two minds over this.

The death penalty for this is way over the top, however, everyone in Australia knows that that is what is probably going to happen if you are caught with drugs. They knew, and made that decision to take the gamble. They lost and now they've paid the price.

As for being rehabilitated - yes, they seem to have done that - but only because they were caught. Does anyone really think that they would have made the decision to become good upstanding citizens if they had got away with it? They would probably have done the same thing over and over until their luck ran out.

They didn't care about the people they were supplying these drugs to, they
were in it to make money from other people's misery.

I do feel for their families, but for those two I have no sympathy.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Apr, 2015 11:17 pm
@cherrie,
cherrie wrote:

As for being rehabilitated - yes, they seem to have done that - but only because they were caught.


Around here, we call that a jailhouse conversion. It often doesn't last longer than it takes to be approved for parole.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 12:11 am
If you want to understand the drug problem, ask for a ride along with the ambulance in Sydney on a Saturday night . The more the Police intercept it, the quality of the drug becomes less . Druggies use bigger doses because it has been padded with household products . A new resupply makes it through and the druggies, usually when administering another dose whilst high, OD . It costs a fortune in money to provide services (like emergency care) and in lost lives .

As for the death penalty, go to the homeless and the street kids who are prostitutes for money to buy food and tell them you prefer to spend money on drug traffickers .

If you havent found a selfish motive, you havent looked hard enough . People against the death penalty are either scared of their own death or have an overly developed sense of socialism .
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 12:17 am
Indonesia has recently successfully fought several cases to save Indonesian Muslims from the death penalty in other countries .
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 01:36 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

People against the death penalty are either scared of their own death or have an overly developed sense of socialism .


I call it being against state sanctioned murder.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 02:19 am
@Wilso,
What do you call it when you spend limited resources on those who dont deserve it ?

A young woman was coming home on a train and was abducted by 5 teenagers in the car park, who then raped her multiple times, vaginally and anally, tortured her sexually with a broken beer bottle and then bashed her to death . The torture lasted for hours .When they confronted court they laughed and sneered .

Now find a child dying because of a lack of funding for a cure and tell them the lives of those five are more important because you think you have high morals .
Wilso
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 02:26 am
@Ionus,
What a bunch of straw man crap. I think you should checks your meds pal. Those associations aren't the product of a stable mind.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 02:32 am
@Wilso,
What a cop out ! You want to spend money on murderers but ignore the consequences ! Yeah, real moral, dickhead . Try thinking, see if it hurts .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 02:55 am
It costs $2.4 million dollars per DAY to keep murderers in Australian gaols . For 365 days a year, for 20 years to life . The murderers murder other inmates and contribute significantly to the inability to reform prisoners .
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 03:08 am
@cherrie,
Good to see your name Cherrie.

Yes, I know "we" know what the ramifications are. And, I read "who knows the reality" that Andrew Chan was the ring leader and I have no doubt if not caught he would have kept going and going and dragging others along with him, yet seems though this was the case 10 years ago, he was forgiven from Myuran right to the end, so he had to have some good about him, after the fact.

They were kids.

People make mistakes in life.

It was a gamble and it went wrong. But, 10 years later? If you are going to go through with something like this, you do it within 2 years at least in my opinion.

They were given false hope and as such, they found things that interested them and realised they could help people and help people they did.

Would they have tried again? I doubt it.

I totally agree 10 years ago what they did was shocking, didn't care.

Did they change? Not sure I think at least Myuran did. I was never sure to be honest whether Andrew chose to go to religion to "get the get out card" but given apparently they all prayed, refused to be blind folded, they stayed strong for the other 6 and helped them through it all.. I'd say yes they did.

What bothers me is that I believe that they were given 20 years, then death when "none of their family" were able to pay monies to them.

I do believe that they are corrupt.

I do believe that they did take photos knowing these guys would be executed laughing it's there in black and white, I do believe they played God.

People can change Cherrie, **** when I was a teenager I can recall. Then I grew up.

Promises, charisma , character you can be someone, have things you never had, temptation has always been around and will always make people do things that otherwise they would never have thought of doing.

It's the 10 years later . It's the " I will make the decision not Australia" It's the reality of playing God that pisses me off to no end.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 03:28 am
If I confined a dog for life I would be in court . But the state can do it to a human . It is nicer and friendlier than killing someone .
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2015 02:17 pm
@Ionus,
Mmmm... Bali 9 were/ are not murderers. Strangely enough "they" those two boys "did" assist in reforming other prisoners and themselves.. To what degree is not relevant it occurred. So your stance on murderers simply murdering someone else in jail and let's not take into account that the harden criminals are isolated for the most part really has nothing to do with this thread however I need to correct you :-

Ionus wrote :-

Quote:
It costs $2.4 million dollars per DAY


FS
Quote:
the daily cost of keeping a prisoner in custody. ... was $334 in 2013-14,15 resulting in an annual cost of $2.4 million.


Annual Ionus not daily.

You talk about rape/murder / money but you don't talk about the safety of "us" Australians by keeping those monsters such as Ivan Milat in jail for life. It's not all about money.......
 

 
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