Fornication from my past life

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

If the God who created Adam and Eve also created in you your empathy and perception of justice, how can you seriously aver that God does not possess those qualities to a greater degree? Moses undoubtedly believed in God's perfection (Deuteronomy 32:4). So how can you contend he did not write Genesis from that point of view?

Who cares? If the "god" you are talking about is that abomination described in the Bible...anyone thinking that thing to be "perfect"...is nuts.

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I can understand someone simply claiming the account to be a total fabrication, but I am totally bemused by those who cannot see its syllogistic correctness even if only as allegory.

I am even more bemused to think that you suppose it has value as an allegory. It is defective to its core. It is a story about a god punishing people for doing something they simply did not know was wrong...and the reason they did not know, was because the god insisted that they not know.

The only allegory value is to show the god to be an absurdity...a cruel, disgusting absurdity.

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It should be obvious that both tempter and tempter (sic) sinned by choice, and that the issues raised by their rebellion are astronomically removed from the simple issue of vegetable selection.

Adam and Eve did not make a choice to offend the god (sin) because they DID NOT KNOW there was anything offensive about disobeying.

Why are you blind to that?

The story tells us that they did not know.

C'mon, Neo. Read the story...you will see that I am correct. They did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying...and the reason they did not know was because the god refused to let them know.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . C'mon, Neo. Read the story...you will see that I am correct. They did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying...and the reason they did not know was because the god refused to let them know.

Yet, humans have a conscience, Frank. Do you suppose Adam and Eve were created without conscience?

My bemusement comes from your lack of understanding that Adam's conscience could have been (and, in fact, was) perfect until he sought the power to decide good and bad for himself.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . C'mon, Neo. Read the story...you will see that I am correct. They did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying...and the reason they did not know was because the god refused to let them know.
Yet, humans have a conscience, Frank. Do you suppose Adam and Eve were created without conscience?

I do not think Adam and Eve were created at all. I think it is a fairy tale. But if you are asking me about the fairy tale...I would have to tell you that the tale tells us clearly that they could not possibly have had what you refer to as "a conscience"...because in order to have a conscience, one has to know right from wrong.

If everything is okay...or the same...how would a conscience operate?

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My bemusement comes from your lack of understanding that Adam's conscience could have been (and, in fact, was) perfect until he sought the power to decide good and bad for himself.

Point out where in the Bible it says that...or if you are just making it up, let us know that you are just making it up.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . I do not think Adam and Eve were created at all. I think iut (sic ) is a fairy tale. . .

Aye, Frank. There be the rub.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . I do not think Adam and Eve were created at all. I think iut (sic ) is a fairy tale. . .
Aye, Frank. There be the rub.

No...that is not the rub, Neo.

I have been talking about the tale right along.

The tale tells us that Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong...good from evil. That is the point of the story.

So deal with the story...that you think to be such an excellent allegory.

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@Frank Apisa,

So you don't believe the account.
But you know what it means.

Thanks for the insight.

Is it snowing where you are?

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@Frank Apisa,

I have respect for the perspective that you view the tale from Frank, but I believe you are very hung up on a word (knowing) that did not exist when the tale of Adam and Eve was penned. The reason I used the word interpretation in my last comment was not intended as a shrug or an insult,
Interestingly, the hebrew word for knowing is Yaw'dah and is used in a wide variety of senses.

Appointing good and bad
Teaching good and bad
Declaring good and bad
Discerning good and bad

Did Adam and Eve have no concept that what they were doing was wrong? or could they not appoint or discern for themselves what was wrong? Are you confident that your understanding is the right one?

Still, you know me Frank, I always lead with the caveat that I could be wrong.

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Aside from the word knowing, you are perhaps right that Adam and Eve were not told that the eating of the tree was... "wrong". According to the Genesis account, Adam and Eve were given a command and a consequence. They knew that if they ate, they would die. They did on both counts.

So their god did not protect them from the consequences of their actions. They had been informed, yet if you notice God made clothes for them, to protect them from the conditions outside the garden. Adam and Eve's sons were taught to serve him. From these two points, it alludes to the idea that Adam and Eve did not feel that they were "duped" or "unfairly treated". Would you say that is an unfair accounting of the tale?

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@Smileyrius,

Smiley. Frank lives in New Jersey.
They've been snowed in for 2 days
Very Happy

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@neologist,

oh no! Frank, do you need a man with a shovel and a willing nature? I have no strength or technique, but I am sure I could be of use to you. I just have to work out the logistics....

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

So you don't believe the account.
But you know what it means.

I do not do believing of any kind.

And yes, I can read a tale...and tell what the story teller is saying.

Can't you?

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Thanks for the insight.

No problem...except that you will not see the truth.

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Is it snowing where you are?

It was, for the most part, a lot of media hysteria...television channels and politicians doing their thing.

We had a bit of snow...but no blizzard.

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

Aside from the word knowing, you are perhaps right that Adam and Eve were not told that the eating of the tree was... "wrong". According to the Genesis account, Adam and Eve were given a command and a consequence. They knew that if they ate, they would die. They did on both counts.

So their god did not protect them from the consequences of their actions.

A lot more than they suffered the consequences of dying.

They were in effect, damned. And so was all the rest of humanity.

No sparer of the rod...that god.

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@Frank Apisa,

define damned

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . They were in effect, damned. And so was all the rest of humanity.. .

So you fault, not the tempter, but the one who provided the warning.

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

define damned

Eternal punishment.

In the fairy tale, all of humanity is being punished eternally for the sting against Adam and Eve.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I'm gonna need some citation Frank Razz

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . They were in effect, damned. And so was all the rest of humanity.. .
So you fault, not the tempter, but the one who provided the warning.

Screw the warning.

If the god wanted to do something...he could have allowed Adam and Eve to have the knowledge of right and wrong (according to the god)...and good and evil (according to the god.) Or (here's and idea) simply not put the tree there.

The tempter was there to tempt. He did his job...which was made much easier because, according to the story, the couple did not know it was wrong to disobey the god.

Ask a five year old kid: If a person puts a young kid into a room with all sorts of toys...and tells the kid that he can play with any of the toys except one...

...what do you think would happen if the kid is left alone?

Most five year old kids would say...the kid would play with the toy he was told not to.

Most five year old kids would realize that, even if you god was unable to do so.

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@Smileyrius,

Smileyrius wrote:

I'm gonna need some citation Frank

Okay...

...Frank...when you use the expression damned, what do you mean?

Me: I mean eternal punishment.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

ISEEWHATYOUDIDTHERE! ho ho Smile

0 Replies

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