B-12 daily need

What is the dosage, Dale?

Need is the operative word there. You only need a certain amount if you fit that model average person in optimal health for which those standards are set.

FWIW, listed on my multi-vitamin bottle, I see the nominal value of 6 mcg listed for adults for 100% of RDA.

However, if you're a small child, an adolescent or on the opposite end - an older or unhealthy or highly stressed out person or living in a polluted environment, things might be different.

Here's one informed medical source that comments on Vitamin B12 deficiency
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/guide/vitamin-b12-deficiency-symptoms-causes

Furthermore, here's another informed article that talks about B12 standards:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/268954-the-recommended-dosage-of-vitamin-b12/

Recommended B12
"The Recommended Dietary Allowance, or RDA, for adults 19 years of age and older is 2.4 mcg vitamin B12 daily. Pregnant women need slightly more vitamin B12, 2.6 mcg a day. The RDA of vitamin B12 for nursing mothers is even more, 2.8 mcg daily. If your diet includes animal foods, you can meet your vitamin B12 needs without an additional supplement. According to the UMMC, vitamin B12 is abundant in fish and shell fish, milk and milk products, eggs, beef, pork and organ meats."


B12 Deficiencies
"Strict vegans are at risk for B12 deficiency, as are older adults, whose bodies are unable to absorb as much of this nutrient as they could when they were younger. People with pernicious anemia, an autoimmune disorder, also suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency because their stomachs cannot produce intrinsic factor needed to absorb the nutrient, says the UMMC. Vitamin B12 deficiency is characterized by shakiness, unsteady gait, weakness, incontinence, low blood pressure, dementia, problems with vision and changes in mood, notes MayoClinic.Com. Deficiencies of this nature are generally treated with supplemental vitamin B12, either orally, intra-nasally or with injections."

[Edit: Correction: There's some bad info I was fed]:

Adults (healthy) over 19 yrs of age are reported to need (RDA) 2.4 mcg of Vit B12.

No Sufficient Evidence of Vitamin B12 Toxicity
"Vitamin B12 is a water-soluble vitamin that is bound to protein in ingested food. Tissue storage capacity of water-soluble vitamins is limited. Water-soluble vitamins are excreted in urine daily. This prevents overdosing. When high doses of vitamin B12 are taken orally, only a small percentage can be absorbed, which may explain the low toxicity.

No toxic or adverse effects associated with a large intake or overdose of vitamin B12 from food sources or supplements in healthy people have been documented. Approximately 56 percent of a 1 mcg oral dose of vitamin B12 is actually absorbed. Absorption actually decreases when the intake amount of the vitamin is increased. There was no sufficient evidence for the Food and Nutrition Board to set a tolerance upper intake level for vitamin B12."

Furthermore, ...
"As 10 to 30 percent of older people may mal-absorb food-bound B12, FNB advises those older than 50 years to meet their Recommended Daily Allowances for it by consuming foods fortified with B12 or a supplement containing B12."

Lastly,
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/nutritional_disorders/vitamin_deficiency_dependency_and_toxicity/vitamin_b12.html

Frank, what, did I slip a decimal

Each tab is supposedly 1000 mcg. Per Rag, "The Recommended Dietary Allowance, or RDA, for adults 19 years of age and older is 2.4 mcg vitamin B12 daily". Wouldn't that make Costco's Nature Made not 170 times but about 400 times daily requirement

Rag thank you for those links. Nonetheless don't you think 170-400 times the daily requirement is just a bit excessive

Yes, it's excessive but not toxic. Also, supplements are probably not going to help you with whatever health issues you're trying to fix. It's wiser to eat healthfully and balanced. Healthy eating of dark greens, organically-raised cold water fish. and regular activity and/or aerobic exercise is probably better protocol to help with lethargy, mood issues.

The minimum daily requirement is the amount required to prevent scurvy in most adults. It may serve other functions requiring the dosage in most tablets to be way higher. Then again, it may just be a marketing ploy.

I'm confused about your comment about scurvy. Scurvy is a result of a lack of Vitamin C. Unless you're just using it as some sort of generic example of an what an RDA means.

I didn't mean to imply you can get any B12 from eating cold water fish. Eating cold water fish will supply you with Omega 3 Fatty Acids, a heart-healthy food that can reduce inflammation, increase good HDL, and potentially reduce the chances of strokes...etc., - contributing positively toward achieving better health.

Here's more expert testimony about good nutrition and prevention:
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/nutrition/food-choices/omega-3-fatty-acids.aspx

1000 mcg is what I take, just as dale saw at the store.

Yes, it looks high, but I don't even think it's excessive. Peoples stress levels, diet, immunity, rest vary from day to day.

Correct in that unless you have a specific b12 deficiency a lot of it will be excreted out of your system. That's fine IMO. I relate to it like am I going to do the bare minimum to take care of myself? If I only have to walk to the end of the block and back to avoid blood clots, I'm not going to stop there. I'll go a mile, or 3 and get other benefits.
Everyone doesn't want, or want to make themselves eat this perfect diet every day. I'm not sure I believe the vitamins in food are always better than what a high quality supplement can provide.
One thing I have learned, as I've said before, not all brands are equal. I would do some research on what brands are made with the highest standards.

Jarrow is a good brand.

It's not going to hurt you dale.

I hope nobody reads what I wrote as any sort of recommendation for eating a prefect diet. However, what I wrote (and meant) is a suggestion that eating a reasonably balanced diet that includes an wild-raised cold water fish is advisable.

Also, I'll restate my point and hopefully clarify it. I believe that taking mega-amounts of B12..is not toxic. I feel that it's just rather doubtful to accomplish much in the way of mood enhancement...or any reduction of sluggishness.

Furthermore, I believe that mankind has advanced itself evolutionarily 'cause somehow we ate foods that were good (and a bit less polluted by chemicals and industrial waste). Mankind didn't advance as a result of ingesting manmade vitamins.

That being said, I take Centrum Silver, a good multi-vitamin and some supplements. I just avoid taking any to excess or super-mega amounts, despite having health issues (N-H Lymphoma). I take these to hedge my bets..and so far it hasn't hurt me. I refuse to think of vitamins and/or supplements as being able to do much for mood enhancement. Increased sunlight is what works for me - hence my move to So FL.

It works for me.

I'm sorry you thought I was saying people should eat a "perfect" diet. I didn't mean it that way.

But for multiple reasons, people just don't eat near the right way. You know how it goes. You say, "eat more cold water fish" They say, bleech, I hate fish. My former boss thought she was being healthy when she would open one of those mini containers of peaches, ate whole grain triscuts and ate the fish at Long John Silvers
And this was an RN, who also had cancer, underwent chemo, and so forth.

I applaude dale for taking an interest in specific supplements. I just wish he would break down and get some professional advice.

Personally, I don't have a lot of, well, respect for these "one size fits all" vitamins like Centrum Siver, or the one's theyspecifically marketed to women, or other populations.

I know like I sound like I'm a soapbox, but seriously, a person really needs to find out from someone qualified what exactly They need.

If you've read what I'm going to say before, feel free to skip, but I'll tell it again. As most of you know, Wally has a heart condition, as well as other stuff, like reoccuring depression and substance abuse.
I have my own alcohol issues from the past, and a history of panic attacks going back to childhood.
Substance abusive that has been indulged for years, including seritonin deprivation, results in a person permanently being handicapped in those areas. You can't just get a better life, and it goes away. Your body no longer knows how to process properly, and that's permanent.
When his weight (he's 5'11) dropped to under 140 pounds, and I mean dropped like a rock, I thought he was just presenting another way he was going to die.
Someone in the medical field I respect referred us to a nutritionist here in Austin that is tops in the field.
Now, Wally was trying to eat, he was taking in high calorie meals and snacks, drinking ensure, boost and anything else like that he could get his hands on.

When we told Dr. L. that he said "Those supplement drinks are advertised that the ingredients promote weight gain. That's the same as saying "He then gestured out the window to the landscaping) that dirt out there has gold in it. Yes, it's there, but not in any amount that would make it worth digging for it. I'm going to give you the supplements that will specifically target his ability to gain weight, ensure muscle growth, and directly help the heart muscle."

And by God, he did just that.

Dr. L. specializes in seeing cancer patients, and he basically gave Wally the supplements he gives them to keep weight on. He put him on Glutamine, HMB, Carnitine (GPLC) and whey protein, to be taken IMMEDIATLEY after exercise. It started off slow, in about 12 weeks, he barely put on 5 pounds, then, suddenly I guess his system was satisfied, and the weight started piling on.
He was also given other supplements for other purposes. After the weight started going on, he was instructed to stop. Well, a month and a half later, the weight started dropping again, fast. He went back on the above, and he's looking better every day.

So see, on paper it may look like he's getting many times the levels of 100%. It just doesn't work that way though. It's like just getting enough....isn't enough. It's like your body needs many times more than it needs, so it can freely excrete what it doesn't need, and be satiated.
The other supplements are for mood, addictive personality, etc.

I take different one's, some for the same purpose. However, since we have very different heritages, our needs were approached differently.

What I know is, if I were taking some multi-purpose vitamin, I wouldn't feel as good and as sane as I do today.

Gee. I should have explained all about that. Given a couple more paragraphs, I could that scurvy is almost impossible except maybe in a very few third world countries.

I did some research in order to further understanding of what is a good source for worthwhile B12 supplements so you actually get good potent quantity and quality.

Here is good source of expert nutritional info:
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/vegansources

Brewer's and Nutritional Yeasts
"Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 unless they are fortified with it. There is at least one vegan, B12-fortified yeast currently on the market: Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula. (Twinlab's SuperRich Yeast Plus contains whey).

Unfortunately, there are some drawbacks to relying solely on B12-fortified nutritional yeast for B12:

•Nutritional yeast often comes from bins in health food stores. If not careful, it would be easy for a store employee to order the wrong nutritional yeast out of the distributor catalogs which often list many yeasts. It would also be easy to accidentally put the wrong yeast into the Vegetarian Support Formula bin.

•B12 is light sensitive. Nutritional yeast is likely to be exposed to the light because it is often stored in clear bins or plastic bags.

•At least one vegan who thought he was getting B12 from nutritional yeast developed B12 deficiency symptoms that cleared up upon taking a B12 supplement.

If you are trying to use Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula for B12, make sure you are actually getting what you think. It is also best to keep it in the refrigerator or freezer, out of the light.

Please note: Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula nutritional yeast has many other nutrients and I eat it myself; but vegans shouldn't rely on it for their sole source of B12, in my opinion."

Cooking
" Tucker et al. (2000, USA, 13) found that vitamin B12 from fortified breakfast cereals and dairy products was associated with better vitamin B12 status than was B12 intake from red meat, poultry, and fish, leading the researchers to suspect that the B12 from meat might be damaged by cooking. The B12 in animal foods tends not to be cyanocobalamin, the form used in fortified foods and that is more stable during cooking. For example, in an acid medium (pH 4-7), cyanocobalamin can withstand boiling at 120° deg. C.

Even so, for people wondering whether they are destroying the B12 in their fortified foods by cooking, we do not have enough evidence to know for certain, so it is safest to make sure you rely on uncooked sources of vitamin B12."

In case I missed it, I think I stated or meant to, that for anyone who has health problems, their nutritional demand for certain nutrients (particularly B12) may be entirely different than of hose who are in the 'optimal-health' community.

I'm not in the optimal health crowd but aspire to get back there once more.
I suffer from B12 deficiency (moderate anemia) which appeared after diagnosis of NH-Lymphoma. as I've outlined, I'm on a supplement quest myself.

*********************
I've read what you posted and agree in principle overall. Before I go too far afield into other matters I want to say that you have my sympathy and empathy for what you (both) have endured and are enduring. I, too, have another clinical health condition (cardiomyopathy) that may be more risky than my cancer is. At least the symptoms for this heart condition are more trouble on a daily level than my cancer currently is.

IMHO proper nutrition is very important for sub-clinical as well as clinical health problems. Perhaps getting food nutrition from meals plus adding in supplements can keep a subclinical health condition from manifesting into a clinical condition.

Furthermore, I would recommend anyone with a health problem (that could be 100% of us), to see a really good nutritionist. I am going to see my excellent VA hospital as that is where my healthcare coverage exists. They have exceeded what my healthcare has been from private practice.

Thanks Rag. If I quit now in the middle of a sentence it's because the crew intends to shut off my power in pursuit of solar installation

Why thanks again Rag, it's not everyday…..

Once more thanks Rag. But who is the other
If you mean my Better Half indeed she endures me

You have my sympathy and condolences



If you don't take his recommendations too seriously

Made it, power still on

My comment about agreement overall was directed to Chai. Sorry, Dale. Note the initial name reference at the top of post, (Chai2).

Alas