Moral Relativity: Where moral values come from?

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I am arguing that immigration policy based on ethnicity goes against the values of liberty, fairness and equality.

So what? Those are just your values.

@joefromchicago,

They are clearly modern Western values. I expect that a vast majority of modern Americans would agree that liberty, fairness and equality are among the most important of values.

They are clearly not values that are implicit in nature. There are several very successful species that have evolved without any regard for liberty, fairness or equality. Take ants, for example. (one of the most successful organisms alive).

And I don't think these values are seen across human cultures. Humans in many successful cultures have developed caste system and systems of slavery. In many cases social order and the success of the many are seen as more important than any of these values.

But they are my values, and they are shared by most of the people who share my cultural background (with only quibbles over the details).

They are your values too, right?

The point of this thread is that I can appeal to our shared values and the values of our culture without asserting that these values come from a deity or any other absolute source of truth.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

They are clearly modern Western values. I expect that a vast majority of modern Americans would agree that liberty, fairness and equality are among the most important of values.

Again, so what? If everyone believes that liberty and equality are worthwhile values, does that mean they're right?

maxdancona wrote:

But they are my values, and they are shared by most of the people who share my cultural background (with only quibbles over the details).

So what?

maxdancona wrote:

They are your values too, right?

Suppose they are. So what?

maxdancona wrote:

The point of this thread is that I can appeal to our shared values and the values of our culture without asserting that these values come from a deity or any other absolute source of truth.

You can appeal to whatever you like, including shared cultural values. There was a time, not so long ago, when shared cultural values included viewing women and blacks as second-class citizens. Are you suggesting that, because those were widely held values, they were right?

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@joefromchicago,

Max has a need to be profound. He will remain a profoundly needy person.

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@joefromchicago,

I feel like we are going around in circles Joe. My moral values come from the same place, the same cultural background, that yours does. It should not surprise you that my views of right and wrong are the same as yours.

Of course liberty, justice and equality are right, and viewing women and blacks as second class citizens is wrong.

The theoretical issue is where do these moral values come from? But practically it doesn't matter. Some people think they come from God. Some people think they come from Science. Some people think they come from some other universal truth.

Cold Joint seems to agree with what you are saying on this thread... if that is any consolation.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Of course liberty, justice and equality are right, and viewing women and blacks as second class citizens is wrong.

Then you're not a moral relativist.

maxdancona wrote:

Cold Joint seems to agree with what you are saying on this thread... if that is any consolation.

So do you ... if that's any consolation.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

That's where you are wrong Joe, of course I am a moral relativist. Cultural relativity is the same idea as scientific relativity.

In scientific relativity people in different frames of reference will get different results to experiment. Each person, although they get a different answer, will be right within their own frame of reference. There is no "universal" right answer.

The principle of relativity from science is: Every Frame of Reference is equally valid.

In order to do physics, you need to recognize what frame of reference you are working in... otherwise you won't get the right answer for that frame of reference. But often when talking to other sentient beings from the same galaxy (let alone the same planet) the frame of reference is implied.

So when I say that liberty and equality are right, I am clearly referring to a Modern Western frame of reference. And since you are also in a Modern Western frame of reference, we can relate to each other just fine with this tacit understanding.

That doesn't invalidate the statement that other frames of reference (i.e. cultural contexts) are equally valid.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

They are clearly modern Western values. I expect that a vast majority of modern Americans would agree that liberty, fairness and equality are among the most important of values.

Nobody has a moral duty to meet your expectations. While your expectations may well be realistic as a statistical matter, I don't see how that confers a moral obligation on any dissenting Western individuals to fall in line with them.

1 Reply

From the concept of a selfish gene certain behaviors are verboten---

Inbreeding brings out many recessive traits, most recessive traits are not beneficial mutations-- inbreeding is a bad idea.

Cannibalism provides many diverse disease routes. Cannibalism does aid survival. Cannibalism is a bad idea.

Your sister has half your genes. Her children have a quarter of your genes. At best your children have half your genes. Your gene's are interested in one thing--the survival of the gene line, not necessarily you as an individual. So an individual may sacrifice their individual existence to preserve the survival of the gene line---so altruism is a good idea.

I may think of more

Rap

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

In scientific relativity people in different frames of reference will get different results to experiment. Each person, although they get a different answer, will be right within their own frame of reference. There is no "universal" right answer.

But the observations are consistent between frames of references. If observations from different frames of reference cannot be made to match by applying a Galilei transformation (in Newtonian physics) or a Lorentz transformation (in relativistic physics), then at least one of the experimenters has an error in a measurement somewhere. In physics, relativity does not bail you out of being objectively wrong. Outside of physics, you shouldn't expect it to do so, either.

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@Thomas,

I wasn't suggesting a moral duty. I was suggesting a common framework where individuals in society can work out differences and live harmoniously.

Humans clearly evolved with the facility for morality (the same as we evolved with a facility for language) even though the moral ideas differ from culture to culture (as vocabulary and syntax differ).

I share a cultural context, and a moral sense with most other Americans. We have the same frame of reference (you are a physics guy, right?)

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@raprap,

That is clearly not correct. There have been several human cultures that have included the practice cannibalism.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I share a cultural context, and a moral sense with most other Americans. We have the same frame of reference (you are a physics guy, right?)

I doubt that very much that American hippies, American scientists, and American Tea-party people live in a shared cultural context. And yes, I am a physics guy. On whatever authority that gives me, let me assure you that you're doing relativity wrong. It is emphatically untrue that observations can only be cross-checked within the same frame of reference.

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@Thomas,

A cultural Lorentz transformation, interesting.... Wink

I think the analogy holds pretty well. Someone who supports a caste system in a modern Western Culture is objectively wrong as measured from within that cultural context (errr frame of reference).

An ant who doesn't support a caste system will lead to the death of the colony. Again... objectively wrong. Better yet, modern ideas of equality would almost certainly fail in human hunter-gatherer societies, the community would fall apart and the people would die.

Moral relativity doesn't say there isn't an objective right answer. It is saying that any objective right answer is measured based on a cultural context. If you understand the relation between cultures, you can map values (anyone who has travelled has done exactly that).

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@maxdancona,

And their gene line died--in the sense of the rules--they violated one of these basic tenets and died--inbreeding and cannibalism does not benefit the gene line.

BTW The cannibalism hazard is a function of frequency--many human cultures include ritual cannibalism, cultures where cannibalism was mundane were few and far between.

Shallow gene pools have also been practiced with questionable results.

Rap

1 Reply

@raprap,

Ok rap,

I am not opposed with your line of reasoning enough to quibble about the details. There are clearly behaviors that humans evolved for survival values. Cooperation toward people we consider part of our tribe is a constant across cultures (since we are social beings). Hostility toward people outside our tribe is another.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I think the analogy holds pretty well. Someone who supports a caste system in a modern Western Culture is objectively wrong as measured from within that cultural context (errr frame of reference).

Fox News and its anxilliary establishments are supporting a caste system in America, though maybe not under this name. It isn't clear to me that their concept of America's cultural context is less valid than yours.

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@Thomas,

Fox News is an immoral organization.

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@Thomas,

Quote:

Fox News and its anxilliary establishments are supporting a caste system in America

You are dead wrong.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

Fox News is an immoral organization.

And MSNBC is not. What a jerk you really are.

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Moral Relativity: Where moral values come from?

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