Cyracuz
 
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 10:27 am
If reality is what we perceive and experience...

...does that make it 'perception input'?

.. or output?
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Type: Question • Score: 2 • Views: 1,618 • Replies: 12
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Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 10:32 am
@Cyracuz,
Well, if my reality is eating a yoghurt, then it's input.

I won't discuss output here.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 11:27 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordy lordy, Lordy but you've again made my day
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Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 12:01 pm
@Lordyaswas,
What's your favourite flavour, banana or strawberry ?
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fresco
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 12:44 pm
@Cyracuz,
Consider an everyday scenario in which the word "reality" is applied.

e.g. She thought there were three biscuits left but in reality there were only two.

"Reality" signifies a switch of real or anticipated action sequences from A to B on the basis of failure of A. It is about a restructuring of anticipated or assumed states of affairs from one that fails to one that succeeds. Notice that this switch only arises in the case of a failure. Had she anticipated two biscuits the word "reality" would not have arisen. The evocation (thinging) of "reality" may therefore be considered a result of perceptual input that clashes with (perturbs )an anticipatory state.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 04:26 pm
@fresco,
Interesting. But your approach seems to focus on usage rather than 'definition'. I have noticed this earlier as well, and it is perhaps something that escapes us easily.
In this thread, as in many others, I have approached the concept 'reality' focused on examining it's meaning, but now that I think about it, it seems meanings are adjusted via usage, rather than the other way around.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 04:35 pm
@Cyracuz,
Yes. Definitions fail (a) because of the infinite regress of language and (b) because of contextual shifting.
Wittgenstein: Meaning is use (in normal language). Philosophical "problems" are a result of words going on holiday.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 07:10 pm
@fresco,
So, according to Wittgenstein, the question posed in he OP is only possible because we have removed the word 'reality' from context (taken it on holiday)?
If that is the case, "words going on holiday" is a damn good metaphor. I feel that words are entitled to holidays, if for no other purpose than recreational fun for everyone. Smile
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 07:23 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
If reality is what we perceive and experience...

...does that make it 'perception input'?

.. or output?
Depends on your location, whether in or out.
I prefer to stay out of things, so I guess perception input. Laughing
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 07:40 pm
@neologist,
Your input is my output. Wink

And that looked way different when I wasn't writing it.. Laughing
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Nov, 2013 08:01 pm
@Cyracuz,
I've witnessed many a conversation consisting only of output, where no one dared accept input.
I think it happens all the time in our legislatures
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 12:56 am
@Cyracuz,
The annoying aspect of taking words on holiday is that we argue about the rules of the game we want to play with them (a bit like trying to decide between beach volleyball or football ). Those who brought their dictionaries from home insist "a volleyball is a volleyball and not a football". And some, who shall remain nameless, only know one boring game and not very well.
BTW. Humpty Dumpty (aka Charles Dodgson the Cambridge mathematician) makes a lot of sense about the use of words. (Picture the beach-master in the film "The Longest Day".)
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G H
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Nov, 2013 01:23 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
If reality is what we perceive and experience... ...does that make it 'perception input'? .. or output?

Just whatever that extrospective environment's own unfolding "story" says is going on, a reality which features the brain / body as residents of itself rather than their being or having meta-phenomenal counterparts. That is, the empirical body isn't "outputting" the world which it is featured as a denizen of. That would be like Bugs Bunny being responsible for producing the cartoon he's surrounded by. Or Captain Nemo uselessly speculating that there's some other reality outside his novel where submarines turned out to be built or powered differently than the Nautilus.

Jules Verne didn't break down a fourth wall for the sake of characters in 20,000 Leagues, but that surely can't be said for all Warner Bros cartoons. Yet even with any instances of the latter, it's a kind of pseudo- breaking down of the 4th wall; of addressing a "hidden audience" or vice versa, that's likewise part of the story rather than exposing legit transcendent "viewers" [footnote at bottom].

In the context of commonsense, our intersubjective reality's internal story asserts that the external world is already much the way in which humans perceive and understand it, prior to the explanation of information about it being inputted to the body. A passive perception, no more altering or creating public happenings than an unreasoning video camera and microphone does. Scientific adjustments may break down a "fourth wall" and expose / hypothesize all manner of weird and disturbing items [yielding indirect perception]; but this again can be regarded as a pseudo-breaking down of a 4th wall, a faux transcencence, like in the cartoons mentioned above (still part of the internal, unfolding story rather than genuinely escaping it).

- - - - - -

[footnote] Purely figurative; the transcendent in general would not have to consist of personhood or possess observational powers, or even exist (for the radical positivist / empiricist). Apart from the necessity demanded by morality and social prescriptions for other minds being the case; Hugh and Sue and Drew and the rest should be assumed to be more than their superficial, outer appearances. Even measuring their organs and cells and atoms is still an outer perspective, what it's like to examine the "other" rather than be it. Though in the case of humans we "know" from our own internal-ness what being a person is like.

A rock or chair or moon is taken to be non-conscious and nothing at all in itself, if extracted from the interdependency of what they are in the public world and our descriptive / technical understandings of them. But this does not seem quite right; just as Kant left something remaining to signify existence on the noumenal side. He also left something unknowable as a validating experience lingering on the noumenal side of humans, as well. Experience or 'what it's like' -- the merger of concepts and appearances, was certainly not the "thing-in-itself"-ness of ourselves in his philosophy, as I might seem to be suggesting above. Panpsychists or panexperientialists wouldn't agree, of course.

- - - - - - -

Reports to the brain about the status of sensitive body tissues that evolution found it handy to turn into a reality simulation. Not necessarily referring to dreams, as Nietzsche did below.

Now, the dream is a seeking and presenting of reasons for these excitations of feeling, of the supposed reasons, that is to say. Thus, for example, whoever has his feet bound with two threads will probably dream that a pair of serpents are coiled about his feet. This is at first a hypothesis, then a belief with an accompanying imaginative picture and the argument: "these snakes must be the causa of those sensations which I, the sleeper, now have." So reasons the mind of the sleeper. The conditions precedent, as thus conjectured, become, owing to the excitation of the fancy, present realities.

Everyone knows from experience how a dreamer will transform one piercing sound, for example, that of a bell, into another of quite a different nature, say, the report of cannon. In his dream he becomes aware first of the effects, which he explains by a subsequent hypothesis and becomes persuaded of the purely conjectural nature of the sound. But how comes it that the mind of the dreamer goes so far astray when the same mind, awake, is habitually cautious, careful, and so conservative in its dealings with hypotheses? Why does the first plausible hypothesis of the cause of a sensation gain credit in the dreaming state? (For in a dream we look upon that dream as reality, that is, we accept our hypotheses as fully established).

I have no doubt that as men argue in their dreams to-day, mankind argued, even in their waking moments, for thousands of years: the first causa, that occurred to the mind with reference to anything that stood in need of explanation, was accepted as the true explanation and served as such. (Savages show the same tendency in operation, as the reports of travelers agree).
Nietzsche, Human, All Too Human
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